Antonis Malaxianakis, Harbor Lab: Navigating the shipping industry with the support of major international funds

Antonis: Hello, Panagiotis. 

Panagiotis: Thank you very much for being with us. 

Antonis: Thank you for inviting me. 

Panagiotis: We've known each other for many years, we've been at university together. Antonis: Right. 

Panagiotis: I feel that I have with me—first of all— a friend, and then a founder, an Endeavor Entrepreneur, of a very great story. 

Antonis: Thank you very much for inviting me. I think it's well-known that wherever I go or might be,I talk about Endeavor. I'm a big fan. 

Panagiotis: Do you want to start by telling us in two or three sentences what Harbor Lab does? 

Antonis: Consider a car that goes to a parking garage and the parking garage has a different pricing policy for each floor, a different pricing policy for each space on each floor, and a different pricing policy, again, depending on the size of the car and how many passengers are in it. The same is true for ships when they go to ports. 

Panagiotis: Okay. 

Antonis: This is the problem that Harbor Lab solves.

Panagiotis: I look forward to hearing more and how this has all played out. It's in an industry where you should expect Greece to start creating even more success stories, right? Because Greek shipping is world-class. 

Antonis: Right. We are — if not the biggest — one of the biggest powers in the world. Panagiotis: Yes. 

Antonis: We hope to become the Silicon Valley of Maritime Tech here in Athens. 

Panagiotis: And if this— that we should become a Silicon Valley— sounds a bit romantic and even utopian, perhaps. It is the only example that is probably realistic. That is, we can indeed become Silicon Valley. 

Antonis: It really is, because the market is here. It is in Athens. It is literally half an hour by car wherever you go. 

Panagiotis: Yes, yes. 

Antonis: Which is not the case in other industries. 25% of the world market is here in Athens. 

Panagiotis: But let’s start with you, first. Tell us a little bit about where you were born, where you grew up. 

Antonis: I grew up in Athens. I am the third child in the family. My sisters are 11 and 12 years older than I am. I guess I was, you know… I happened by mistake. But I was lucky because I grew up partly as an only child, so, I had, you know, the full attention of my mother, if you will. But, at the same time, I also had the advantage of having two sisters who paved the way for me to start going out at a younger age. 

Panagiotis: And I know that entrepreneurship is very much in the family. Dad's a businessman. But are your sisters involved in entrepreneurship, at all? 

Antonis: That's right, they have taken over the family business, Design Pergola, selling outdoor furniture and pergolas. My father died when I was in my first year of university, so, I had to join the family business to support my mother. I was CEO from 2005 to 2013. 

Panagiotis: What's it like to be a CEO at 18? It's a bit… Ιt sounds like quite a lot...it has challenges.

Antonis: It is hard enough for a child. On the other hand, it also put me in a slightly different way of thinking from a very young age. We also had a strong...how shall I say it?...You know, my father died when I was 18, but he was sick since I was 12, so, there was a kind of survivor instinct. So, I was able to cope with the problems. I obviously had a lot of support from both my sisters and my mother. It wasn't easy, but it was a one-way street. There was no other way. So, anyone who knows me, you know, if you ask my friends "Who is Antonis?", they'll tell you "Antonis is a hustler". So, that was the way I managed to survive. 

Panagiotis: I'm going to assume you're also studying while you're a CEO? 

Antonis: That's right. Not terribly diligent as a student, nor as a learner. However, I was studying at the same time. I will tell you that I took it seriously towards the end in my fourth year. That's why I was late to graduate. I finished my studies in five years. 

Panagiotis: Five years? Okay. 

Antonis: But in four years, I was very strong, I had passed four courses. Panagiotis: Four courses in four years. 

Antonis: One course a year, just for luck. 

Panagiotis: What do you remember from that time? Are there things and experiences that you gained during that time that play a role today in your journey as a founder and CEO? 

Antonis: A lot. In 2008, I remember, it was probably the best year we had in the company with the shop. I remember getting up at four o'clock in the morning. I used to go to the factory— if you will—we were going at that time. We were loading the trucks to make the deliveries, then I'd go to the shop, open the shop, work untill the afternoon. Then, in the afternoon, we'd go back to the factory to look at the new deliveries, be ready for the next day in the morning. Sometimes, because I was very young, I would go out, go to the club, and then go straight to work again. It's hard to say this, but it's sometimes so hard to be a founder. There are so many adversities that you face every day, that, if you don't have the strength to swim against the tide, you're not going to make it. 

Panagiotis: You graduate, you get a degree in five years, then what happens? 

Antonis: I had my compulsory army duties. While I was in the army, I started thinking about what I really wanted to do, and that was, you know, a difficult time for me because you identify with what you're doing and it's very difficult if you want to let go of the idea that, you know, I'm going to continue what my father wanted me to do.

Panagiotis: Did he want— did he want you to be involved in the family business? 

Antonis: Yes, yes. It was perfectly clear. I wanted to be a director. So yeah, while my mom was a housewife, she was the ambitious one in the family, and she was also the one who always wanted us to go the extra mile. So, as a kid, instead of, you know, reading books about, like, Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, she was reading me books about Onassis, Niarchos; Of course, she was skipping a lot of the history. But it was always, you know— when I was five years old and they asked me "What do you want to be when you grow up?", all the kids said "footballer", but I used to say "shipowner". Practically speaking, because there are always two sides to a story. There is the romantic side, but there is also the practical side. On the practical side, because I wanted to live in Greece and I didn't want to leave, it was the only industry where, if I managed to do well, I could ensure a good standard of living for myself and my family. 

Panagiotis: So, you're in the army, you're trying to figure out what you're going to do, and shipping is very high on your mind. What do you do about it? 

Antonis: After completing my army service, I sent out 250-280 curriculum vitaes (CVs) or so. Every email address I could find of a shipping company, I sent my CV. I got no answer! It was also a very strange CV, to be honest, you know. Who would believe that a kid has been working since the age of 18 and on. 

Panagiotis: That’s a pity, I'd say! 

Antonis: It's a difficult profile. 

Panagiotis: If I got the same CV, the first call I'd make would be to you, but... 

Antonis: Well, it didn't work out that way, unfortunately and fortunately. So, I stayed in the family business. One day I was serving a lady—a great lady— and when I sold her an umbrella and was writing the receipt, I asked "What's your name?" and she replied Eleni Martinou. I asked "What is your relationship with the Martinos family?", and she replied, "I'm one of them.” And I said to her "Here's the receipt and here's my CV.” 

Panagiotis: It's a terrible coincidence, isn't it, this person appeared after you sent 280 CVs and no one had responded, and here comes one of these families, one of the strongest families, one of the most prominent families, 

Antonis: Right.

Panagiotis: And they make you an offer to come and work for the company as an intern? 

Antonis: Right. 

 

Panagiotis: The question that comes to me a bit spontaneously here is, would you go, even without money, to work for them? 

Antonis: Without a second thought. It was a great time, because I can't hide the fact that the experience of being in the family business leaves a mark. It's not that everything is ideal, you know. Those were difficult years. So, it was a little bit more carefree in the beginning because there weren’t as many responsibilities. However, you know, I followed my heart; I wanted to move up, you know, I wanted to move up quickly. I'm not known for my patience. And on my first month, they offered me to stay permanently, and, since then, I moved to the disbursements department, which is the problem that Harbor is solving now. And that was one of the things that, I mean, in the future— it was a driving force to be able to help the people who are doing the work that Iwas doing at that time so that they would start to get involved with the interesting part of the work and leave the admin part of the work to me. That was, let's say, something that I was very keen to do. Just think that globally, in shipping, in our part of the work, one person is needed per eight ships if you are doing the work manually. Through Harbor Lab, you just need one person per 50 ships because it takes the entire admin part; there is no need to do it. 

Panagiotis: While shipping is so prominent and big in Greece, we don't know how it works. What you're telling us now about the expenses, the purchases to be made, and the deals entered into in every port, all these things are new. Help us understand a little bit how the market works. As I understand, there is one person from the shipping company— one person per eight ships— who must only manage the agreements to be made and the ship at the port. On the other hand, there is a person at each port coordinating this work? 

Antonis: There are hundreds of agents at every port. Just think that, currently, within Harbor Lab, there are more than 4,000 registered agents globally. 

Panagiotis: Ok. 

Antonis: The agent is essentially "the eyes" of the office at the port, if you will. That is, the agent gives us information about what happens on the ship when it arrives at the port. 

Panagiotis: And do they mediate between the suppliers and the ship? 

Antonis: They are two different players, if you will, in the equation. One is the shipping company that manages the ships, and the other is the agent. The agent sends you an estimation of the costs, and the shipping company has to negotiate it, make the consolidation, and handle the admin work for the preform. The company has to negotiate the costs, which are negotiable, and put pressure, if you will, on some other things, on some costs which may not be there—because, you know, these things happen. That's where this person saves money, essentially, for the shipping company. 

Panagiotis: I can think of two expenses for a ship at the port: oil and renting space. What does it do? What purchases are made there? 

Antonis: Alright, oil is another part of the job. 

Panagiotis: Another part? 

Antonis: It is the biggest expense of a shipping company. Just to give you an idea, each ship spends about $3 million a year on oil and $2.2 million a year on our expenses, which are the disbursement part. 

Panagiotis: Okay. 

Antonis: So, what are disbursements? It is divided into three broad categories. The first one is the so-called port dues, which are the tugboats, pilots, port dues, lighthouse dues, those kinds of costs. The second part is the agent's expenses, which basically involves paying the agent. The third part is what's called "owner's expenses," which are related to the ship—like crew changes, getting parts on board, washing— all the parts— where people stay to go on board, or where they stay when they come off, and customs for the airport, all that. 

Panagiotis: Supplies, I guess, sure. 

Antonis: Yes, this whole part belongs to disbursements. 

Panagiotis: Okay. 

Antonis: And it comes to almost the same cost as oil. 

Panagiotis: It's a huge amount. 

Antonis: Right. I was lucky at Thenamaris because the CEO at the time was Giannis Martinos. Panagiotis: Yes. 

Antonis: Who founded Signal afterward. 

Panagiotis: Yes.

Antonis: He had a very different vision for shipping, if you will, which he passed on to all of us who joined Thenamaris as new employees. He got us to think a little differently. One of the first questions he asked me when I met him was, "What would you change?" He asked me that question very quickly. I think since then we've had good chemistry, and he became the first investor in Harbor Lab after that. 

Panagiotis: Of course, and he's also a member of the Endeavor Board of Directors (BoD) and a fantastic person. I guess the next step is entrepreneurship, right? 

Antonis: No. I stayed with Thenamaris for 4.5 years. 

Panagiotis: Okay. 

Antonis: Which, for my level of patience, feels like decades. After 4.5 years, I had completed my circle; I wanted more responsibilities, so I moved to the StarBulk Group, which is listed on the stock exchange. I saw the same problems again. I tried to search the market for what was available that I could use in the company. I had no intention of doing something on my own at the time. I was preparing to get married, so nothing new had crossed my mind. 

Panagiotis: So, nothing entrepreneurial? 

Antonis: Nevertheless, I saw the competition. There was no company providing software as a service that I could use with my people. At the time, and still now, there are two companies that are partly competitors of Harbor Lab. They solve the problem with manual resources in India, which was different from what I wanted to do and where I could see value. However, because I had no alternatives, I gave our current competitors a chance. We introduced a pilot, checked the invoices, and found many mistakes. That was the moment I said, "This is it, this is it." 

Panagiotis: "This is it, I'm doing it." 

Antonis: Yes, yes. 

Panagiotis: And you decided to do it the next day? 

Antonis: I didn’t quit right away. Initially, I went and asked for my wife’s blessing because I knew that once I got involved, I would dive in fully. 

Panagiotis: Yes, yes. 

Antonis: So, I put everything down on paper and actually drew the first screens of the software, how I wanted it to look for the user. I started like that and then hired a part-time software designer. We made the first prototypes. I started showing them to friends and industry acquaintances involved in disbursements. The feedback was very positive. I resigned afterward; my last day at work was December 31, 2019, and I officially started Harbor Lab on January 1, 2020. We released the MVP of Harbor Lab on March 10, 2020, and two days later, we shut down due to COVID. 

Panagiotis: That must have been tough. 

Antonis: At the time, yes, it felt like a huge setback, but I think, in the end, we’ll reflect on it as something positive. 

Panagiotis: I agree, though, it must have been tough in the moment. 

Antonis: Yes, it forced us to build resilience. COVID accelerated the need for shipping companies to digitize their processes. By 2020, we had 220 ships using our platform. 

Panagiotis: Were these ships all Greek? 

Antonis: Yes, all Greek ships. 

Panagiotis: That's great! 

Antonis: Yes, Greek shipping really embraced me and supported me through tough times. They believed in the dream and my story of what I wanted to bring to the industry. Just think, the company was established on May 2, 2021, and in the first month of operation, we had a revenue of $50,000. Then, we gradually entered the fundraising process. 

Panagiotis: For the first time? 

Antonis: Yes, for the first time. Until then, our funding source was angel investors from the industry, with the biggest contribution from Giannis, with whom I had worked together in Thenamaris. 

Panagiotis: So, you've raised funds first from some... 

Antonis: Angel investors. 

Panagiotis: Angel investors. 

Antonis: Right. 

Panagiotis: The first, anyway, very traditional step for a start-up to get the first funding, two, three, four people— people who can do it, they understand and can put in the first money and take a lot of risk.

Antonis: And people in the same industry to us. That was also very important. Because, they knew the magnitude of the problem we were trying to solve. Because, the more traditional venture capitals, if you will, hadn't seen success stories in shipping and it was a difficult industry to get into, so it took a little bit of training, if you will, from our side, on how big the market is, why the opportunity is big and so on. 

Panagiotis: But armed with very good angel investors, and a very good first track record reaching monthly income of $50,000, 200 ships, you try to raise money from institutional investors. 

Antonis: Right. 

Panagiotis: Tell us a little about this experience. 

Antonis: Nice experience. No complaints, we were lucky here. We were just before the market "boom", if you will. So, 2021 was a very good year to raise funding. 

Panagiotis: It really was. 

Antonis: And we started, of course, in November and it was completed in March. Giannis and Giannis' team carried out, you know, introductions to several VCs. And that's where. I met Apostolos Apostolakis. Love at first sight. And, while he was the third in line to give us his term sheet, he was the first in our heart. So, we decided to work with Apostolos, and at the same time, it was a big round, that is, we raised 6.1 million euros in a seed round, which is the largest in the history of maritime tech. It was co-leading along with Speed Invest. 

Panagiotis: It is a very, very, very successful fundraising. What are the first messages you get from your team, from the market, from yourself? 

Antonis: In the phase where the start-up burns money every month, there is an expiration date. Right? This creates a lot of stress, both to the people working in a start-up, as well as to the founder. So, you know, it's a great opportunity to take a breather and then refocus on the goal and be able to proceed to execute. 

Panagiotis: We moved the expiration date down a few years, but at the same time, we're going to increase spending, push for growth... 

Antonis: Right.

Panagiotis: Hire, open markets, and the expiration date is coming up again. What were the main changes that came with this seed round? I'm going to stick with the seed round, although you have made bigger and more successful rounds, because it's a record-breaking seed round and I am just wondering what were the impacts, both positive and negative. 

Antonis: I'll tell you something, that was very positive for us because it gave us quite a lot of exposure, because of the amount. We started receiving CVs that we didn't receive before, CVs from people who were senior, who started reading about us, started believing in the idea. They understood that we would always be a Greek company, if you will, but in an international business environment. But the headquarters would always be in Greece, because, as we said, the biggest share of the market is here. So, it helped us a lot in being able to do good recruitment, to bring in developers to help us build the software, you know, in the way we dreamed of, and I think I'll say that the biggest part of the investment went into that. 

Panagiotis: To the part of the team. 

Antonis: It went to the part of technology. 

Panagiotis: To the team and the technology. 

Antonis: I think we went from eight people to forty in eight, ten months? Eight months. 

Panagiotis: And, suddenly, another door opened up, with a million problems hidden behind it, which is called team management, leadership, issues within teams, structures. 

Antonis: A mess. 

Panagiotis: A mess. 

Antonis: A mess, a mess. This is probably the most difficult part of the job, and it remains, I can assure you, the most difficult part of the job. My approach was very romantic. You know, "we're all a family here"; and, if now someone says this thing to me, I would shudder, so to speak. It was a dream. Still, you know, we grew, we learned. We suffered and we learned. The company is growing so fast, that you have to be constantly alert and learning to grow with it. If the company grows faster than you grow, then you stop being the right person to run that company. And Apostolos helped me very much in guiding me in, you know, what I should read, what stimuli I should get. He brought me in contact with Alex Chatzieleftheriou, so I started, you know, sharing some concerns with him, things and problems that I was facing at that time, that he had already faced. So, he put me in the process of being able to search and find people in the ecosystem, such as, for example, Endeavor, and I built a network of people where we basically act as each other's support system.

Panagiotis: Alright, we're going to play a game. 

Antonis: Okay. 

Panagiotis: Pick a card. Yes, you read the word, and you give us the terminology that you have in mind for that word: Disruption. 

Antonis: To be able to change the status quo and to be able to offer a different way of thinking and a different approach to solve a problem that many people are concerned about. 

Panagiotis: Disruption in the way you build your team, its culture, is that something you bring? 

Antonis: To be able to help people become better professionals, we need to help people become better people, or, if not better people, to grow as persons. I'm trying to help people get into a process of wanting to grow themselves. So, this is a pretty disruptive, if you will, process. I really believe in this thing. I've seen it work for me and I would like, if anyone has a problem, because, you know, in Greece, it is a bit of taboo going to a psychologist... 

Panagiotis: It sure is. 

Antonis: Is to help people do it if you've got them right there. Eventually something will trigger you and you will go. 

Panagiotis: I see a mindset that is very much ahead of its time. Now I understand why you have been chosen as a "Great Place to Work" three times, You have a very nice metric, a very large participation of women in the team, as it should be. Tell us a little bit about that. 

Antonis: Yes, I think that, the last metric was that 52% of the company is women. It's not something we did on purpose… 

Panagiotis: Yes. 

Antonis: They were just the best. 

Panagiotis: I'd like you to tell me a bit about a case of disruption, which is very positive, and knowing you, I know that it has come your way, very recently, you've also become a dad. What is like being the founder of a high-growth start-up, who, suddenly, gets something else of high-growth, a high-growth baby with a tsunami of new stuff?

Antonis: I think it's the only thing I can deal with and not think about Harbor Lab. Here, you really feel, that you have a responsibility to be able to put a good person out into society and to be able to teach them some basic things so that they can fight. 

Panagiotis: You've built a great company in Greece, you employ a lot of people in Greece, you live in Greece, you're raising a child in Greece. I wonder a little bit, what are your dreams, what are the things you want to see happen in the country, what is your impression of where the ecosystem of tech innovation, the economy of the country is going? What do you think is on the way? 

Antonis: The tax reduction, for example, which has been passed and it's a very, very nice... Panagiotis: Incentive. 

Antonis: Incentive, if you will, to bring people back from abroad, which is also something that I'm very, very passionate about and I'm trying to bring back, if you will, my generation. All my friends and acquaintances have left and gone abroad to live and work, we're trying to bring them back. It's very, very important to see them do things like that, you know, so that we can start to move forward. But I would like to make a comment here that we gave a very nice and big incentive for the people who left abroad, but, somehow, we have to reward the people who stayed here during the crisis. 

Panagiotis: What are the things that you find that a successful founder of a seed stage start-up needs to bring with them to make sure, that— I like what you're saying, they grow at the same rate if not more than the rate at which their company grows? 

Antonis: Look, it's very different depending on the character of each person. What was a bit difficult, if you will, for me— because my character is like that— was to be able to share the work to the rest. That is, I was trying to do everything myself. It's exhausting and that's why, at some point in the beginning of Harbor Lab, in early 2021, I got burned out and that's why I 

had to change my work habits, if you will, a little bit. My coaches and mentors have been telling me this for a very long time, that this path you have chosen will not work out well for you. That's when I realized that I had to take a little more care of myself, to take a little more care of Antonis. I started exercising again after a long break because I've always done sports. That helped me a lot in my everyday life, but also as a person, if you will. Sometimes I have too much energy, and has to come out somewhere. It was a difficult period. 

Panagiotis: Okay. I really like what you're saying because, indeed, it has to be one of the founder's goals to leave their company unscathed by what they're experiencing and that's great, and I love that we're slowly adding other players to the support system of a founder, it could be psychoanalysis, it could be a person who helps us fix our diet, to have a personal trainer. What are the things that are starting to contribute to the growth that the investors are expecting? 

Antonis: When I started, I had the dream that, you know— and I was saying it, that "Here, we are a family". It was a very good and big lesson for me to learn that, here, we are not a family, we are a team that wants to go and lift the Champions League trophy. To be able to lift the Champions League trophy, we need the best player in all positions. That's the mentality. And that was a very big culture change. When that happened, I must tell you that, many of the people that have been with me since the beginning— it was then that period, you know, the Great Resignation period, as they say, just after COVID was over, where many people during this culture change, if you will, of the company, they decided to leave. Therefore, we were starting Harbor Lab 2.0. The first thing I decided we have to do was to get a corporate identity, to understand who we are and who we want to be when we grow up. Then, we went through the process of bringing in people who could take us up to Series A; people with a different profile from the ones of the pre-seed period, people who were more experienced, who had been through this stage before, who had done it successfully before, again and again. My own personal goal, if you will, was the hardest part of shipping and our company, which is the sales part; to be able to grow the company so fast, that we would be ready within the next two years for Series A. That meant that we had to double and triple the turnover, year after year. We managed to do that two years in a row and it was, if you will, the main part that led us to Series A. 

Panagiotis: There's this fantastic growth rate, new partnerships, I guess, a lot of companies coming in as new customers. How many ships are there now, just before Series A? 

Antonis: There are five hundred ships that are paying and another thousand that have now been on-board. We are now past Series A, we have reached one thousand five hundred ships that are paying for the platform. 

Panagiotis: And just before you start the new round of funding, what is your turnover? Antonis: I'm at 1.5, 1 million 700 thousand euros. 

Panagiotis: Your Series A was over-subscribed with capital letters and a space in each letter. And a fund, like Atomico, comes in for the first time. I have to say that it's a very, very big success that shows what all of you have built, what you have built. 

Antonis: Thank you very much. Yes, in this round of funding, we were indeed over-subscribed, as well. So, again, we were lucky, if you will, to choose which people to work with; this is very important for start-ups and very important for founders, because these are the people who support, if you will, the BoD. And with Atomico, it was a very competitive process, it was so competitive, that, you know, when you're in the final stage, you have, if you will, a type of interview with the whole investment committee, of each fund so that the partners can collectively decide, whether to invest in the company or not. The round was so competitive because we had received other term sheets, and this was done on a Sunday. 

Panagiotis: Great. 

Antonis: Just the fact that it was on a Sunday told me a lot about the level of commitment of this company to Harbor Lab. 

Panagiotis: Give us a bit of the technical specifications. 

Antonis: We raised 15 million euros, that's the exact amount. Atomico is participating in Series A. 

Panagiotis: And they are the lead investor? 

And they are the lead investor, correct. Notion Capital, which had led in a previous round. Venture Friends, Speedinvest, Endeavor Catalyst, and TMV, which is a maritime VC in New York. 

Panagiotis: And the lead investor ,so to say, that maybe, to share a little bit of terminology, is an investor who takes responsibility… 

Antonis: Right. 

Panagiotis: First of all, to take the largest percentage of the round and put in the highest amount of money, but also, is responsible for the assessment of the... 

Antonis: Company’s value... 

Panagiotis: Company's value. At the time of raising the money. This means running an audit, a thorough audit, right, and so, everyone else that follows, usually follow that due diligence audit that this lead investor has performed. 

Antonis: Right. 

Panagiotis: And the fact that it's Atomico, it makes the round world-class, right? Because Atomico is one of the top-performing funds and drivers in the European scene. We have every reason to believe that when a fund comes in and enters an ecosystem and invests in a company, in a country, the one certainty is that this country is now under its radar. And the one certain thing is that it will have some kind of exposure in the next cases, and we have every reason to believe that an investment and an investor coming into a country, will bring more. What's the next goal? What is the bet that Atomico bought? What are the key next steps that you see for your company and for you? 

Antonis: Look, the important thing remains… the big increase in the company's turnover in the coming years. This does not change. It's, if you will, the most important part for investors, top-tier investors able to invest in a start-up, is to grow revenue quickly. I said before that we were 40, now we are 80. Before Series B, we estimate that we will be around 120 to 130 people. So, the company will go into a new phase again, a new process. So, the process for us to be able to grow as Harbor Lab grows, is the same. It's a lot of personal effort and a lot of work for me and for the rest of the senior leadership people. It's just that, the lessons we're taking, are different now. That is, from now on, when— my big goal is to be able to have an organization with 120 people, but to be as fast as we were when we were 20. This is a very, very big problem for start-ups, because you see that the more people come in, the slower the organization becomes. 

Panagiotis: Rapid fire. Rapid questions to see if we have missed something from your personality. Alright? So, book or podcast? 

Antonis: Book. 

Panagiotis: Early bird or night owl? 

Antonis: Definitely night owl. 

Panagiotis: Definitely night owl. Coffee or tea? 

Antonis: Lots of coffee. 

Panagiotis: Coffee, good. Let’s see if we find a person in the season, who would choose tea. Which historical figure would you like to have dinner with and why? 

Antonis: I would definitely like to have dinner with Aristotle Onassis. 

Panagiotis: Oh good. 

Antonis: For so many reasons. As I said in the beginning, he's one of the people who was always there, and was one of the romantic reasons why I wanted to get into the industry, both for the great work ethic he had and for his great lust for life.

Panagiotis: What is your favorite city to travel to? Professionally or not. 

Antonis: I would say, Copenhagen. 

 

Panagiotis: Copenhagen. 

Antonis: It's a very nice city, and it's one of the biggest, people don't know it, it's one of the biggest maritime hubs in Europe. 

Panagiotis: Oh okay, I wouldn’t expect the Netherlands in Europe. 

Antonis: Right. 

Panagiotis: Good to know. Is there a book that changed your life? You talked earlier about the reading lists they give you, from time to time. 

Antonis: It's definitely the "Five Dysfunctions of a Team", by Patrick Lencioni. We already had the pleasure— the consulting arm of Patrick Lencioni came to Greece for Harbor Lab and we did a 3-day off-site with all the senior leadership to look at our own dysfunctions and how we can solve them. 

Panagiotis: What is the best advice you have received? 

Antonis: Suck it up and do the work. 

Panagiotis: Suck it up and do the work. What do you think makes an entrepreneur an Outlier? What makes them stand out so much? 

Antonis: Having a relentless drive to pursue their goals. Not letting anything get in the way. Panagiotis Antonis, thank you very much, it was a fantastic discussion. Antonis: Thank you, Panagiotis, for inviting me. 

Panagiotis Best of luck. 

Antonis: Thank you.