Athanase Kollias, KINVENT: Digitizing the Field of Physiotherapy

Panagiotis: Hello, Thanasis! 

Athanase: Hello, Panagiotis! 

Panagiotis: Thank you for joining us. We are in our offices for the fifth season of the Outliers podcast and we are very excited to hear your story. 

Athanase: It's good to see you too, I am very pleased to be invited to the Endeavor offices. 

Panagiotis: Would you like to give us a quick definition? What is Kinvent and what does it do? 

Athanase: Kinvent helps sports and health rehabilitation professionals to efficiently evaluate patients and athletes and help motivate them in their rehabilitation and training. 

Panagiotis: OK. How do we do this? 

Athanase: How do we do this? We have a set of 8 sensors, all connected to one application for evaluation and training of strength, balance, and movement. Today, we have around 17,000 professionals working with us, 25% in France, a total of 80% in Europe, and 10% between Asia and America. 

Panagiotis: From my understanding, it is not only rehabilitation, it is also preparation. It is also combined with exercise, without having to do any rehabilitation. 

Athanase: Exactly! Our 2 big markets today, basically, the biggest by far, is physiotherapy, so, about 15,000 physiotherapists around the world work with us, and the second is sports. High-level sports. So, imagine the French national team, which uses Kinvent and, with Kinvent, it can evaluate, say, before the match, whether the athlete is in good shape, if we see any early signs of injury, or if, after the injury, they are ready to get back in the game. 

Panagiotis: Okay. It's very interesting. Where were you born and raised?

Athanase: My father is Greek from the Peloponnese and my mother is French from Grenoble. 

Panagiotis: OK. 

Athanase: They met in Canada. 

Panagiotis: Ah! OK. 

Athanase: Yes. My mother followed my father to Thessaloniki. Iraklis and Isabelle live happily in Thessaloniki. They had 5 kids and I'm the firstborn, so, I grew up in Thessaloniki, and I did a part of my studies in France. I also worked in France, after the army, at Michelin and stayed briefly in Africa at some French companies, and then came Kinvent. 

Panagiotis: If I'm not mistaken your father is connected to your story. 

Athanase: Exactly! 

Panagiotis: Tell us more. 

Athanase: My father is a university professor. At least, he was. He's now retired. His science is Biokinetics at the Department of Physical Education and Sports Science in Thessaloniki. He started there in 1985, 3 months before I was born. I remember myself, from the age of 1-2, playing with his screwdrivers in his biokinetics lab and I remember him telling students "all the things you see here, if you work hard and learn them, you can make them yourself and earn an income.” 

Panagiotis: What was Dad making? 

Athanase: At the University in Thessaloniki, he had an annual equipment budget of around 2,000 euros, so he had to do it all himself. 

Panagiotis: Yes. 

Athanase: So, he built his first platforms to measure the jump of an athlete. So, imagine that he also had a lathe and a milling machine in the workshop to build things and play with. And that's how I started. And eventually, I became a mechanical engineer, and I always had this in mind because I also did sports for 10 years, rowing and rugby. 

Panagiotis: Ah! OK. 

Athanase: Mostly rowing... and thanks to my beloved sports, I very often found myself in physiotherapy. Shoulders, knees, ankles. And every time, the same old story. After 3 sessions, I just wanted to go home and quit. 

Panagiotis: Why?

Athanase: I'll tell you, as an engineer, all my professors always said "Athanase, you must base your decisions on numbers and curves." And there was nothing. So, the purpose behind Kinvent was to bring science, biokinetics, and tailor it for coaches and physiotherapists to help them monitor patients and athletes. So, that's how Kinvent began. 

Panagiotis: What does Mom do? 

Athanase: She's mainly a programmer. 

Panagiotis: OK. 

Athanase: So, there was a time when I programmed with her a bit. But the truth is that, in my family, we have no entrepreneurs. And I started Kinvent saying "we're going to make a good product". As an engineer, I started with the product, and then I found that there was indeed a product-market fit. So, as an engineer, I started with the product from an idea, and after two 

or three conversations or more, with people in healthcare, it appeared that it was what they needed. And then, you find potential customers, you talk to them, and sell the first prototypes. That's how we all start. 

Panagiotis: Are there moments in your childhood where you say that this is a course you want to follow? You were playing with screwdrivers, you were around products and devices... How did all this... Have you considered how much it affected you? 

Athanase: I think the moment I said that I want to do something like Kinvent, it was around the time I was a student. Because, as an engineering student, I saw what cool things we can create to help the sector that I loved dearly, sports. When we study, it doesn’t mean we feel ready to create and move forward on our own. That's why I wanted first to get some experience in the industry, hence Michelin, where I was a biokinetic, I mean, I was doing analysis on whether the driver of a very large mine vehicle felt comfort or not depending on the tire he used. 

Panagiotis: How long did you do this job? 

Athanase: I did it for four years. 

Panagiotis: Four years? 

Athanase: At Michelin. And that's where I first found rugby. I played rugby at Clermont Ferrand. 

Panagiotis: OK. 

Athanase: Which is one of the French rugby capitals. It's a great, awesome local team. And that's where I saw the way in which one should go forward with a project, a plan in the industry, i.e. a method.

Panagiotis: OK. 

Athanase: How a product goes from an idea, through specifications, and is then created. That's where I got the method and that was extremely important for me because it helped me greatly in the future when we create a product at Kinvent, not to leave it to chance. 

Panagiotis: Did this come straight out of university? 

Athanase: It started a little earlier, when I started my studies in Thessaloniki, in the second year a professor, Mr. Samaras, called me to his office and told me "Athanase, Thanasis, there is a program with a French university in Paris, where you will go." Why should I go? He said “Because we can send only one student and you will go.” I can go, but why me? Because, he said "The last lesson you asked a very good question and you continued with this logic, so, I think you'd be a good asset to start with, so, we'll send you to France.” And I left to do 2 years in France at École Centrale, which is an engineering university in Paris. 

Panagiotis: OK. 

Athanase: Where I also got a diploma, so, I have a double degree between Thessaloniki and Paris and that is where I made my first contacts with the French industry. 

Panagiotis: OK. 

Athanase: Hence, Michelin. 

Panagiotis: Tell us a bit about Africa. What did you do there? How long? 

Athanase: I was there for 2 years, working in a construction company which was building roads, a French company, in Cameroon. 

Panagiotis: OK. 

Athanase: Awesome experience, for entrepreneurs it's just the thing. You can, for example, in the morning have a meeting with the headquarters in Paris, with the big bosses, for a budget of, say, 100 million euros, and in the afternoon, you have no connection and you have to fix the Caterpillar that is stopped with the books you have there, and you have to go clean the toilets because the cleaning lady didn't show up. And, sometimes, some things you know, so, you do them. Some you don't know. And you either ask or you learn them then. 

Panagiotis: Rolling up your sleeves in general and getting in on everything helps a lot. I’ve had similar discussions with other entrepreneurs, who told me that, in the early days, I was at the entire customer journey, the whole customer experience. I’ve made the delivery, taken up the shopping, I have been there, I have heard such stories, which are really very important to be heard. How did the idea of Kinvent start?

Athanase: The idea at first came after some discussions with physiotherapists and rehabilitation doctors, how to help them, say, after a stroke or an operation, to coach and support a patient. So, imagine, that after a stroke or after cruciate ligament surgery or arthroplasty, fully fix the whole knee, the patient has to learn to stand on their own two feet again. To put it simply. So, we need to show them how well they can stand up. To put it simply, it’s like saying they will keep them standing on two scales and tell them to try to put the same weight on each one. 

Panagiotis: OK. 

Athanase: Basic principles. But, to do it properly, this must be connected to do all this in real time, so that they see it on a big screen in front of them and, at the end, we generate an evaluation showing the healthcare professional the progress this patient is making. So, imagine that we created our first "power platforms", that's what this technology is called. So, it's systems that we put on the floor, the patient or athlete steps on. They do the right movement, for example, simple load shifting, right - left or jump or skipping or squat or just support. We do the analysis in the background and put it on a computer. 

Panagiotis: You started the company in 2016. Entrepreneurship, especially in technology, is usually software so, it's an idea that I put into a computer, I design something, a software and give it to the world. To grow and spread, but you make devices, you build hardware. 

Athanase: The truth is that when we talk about technology or startups today, we're mostly talking about software, you're right. But I'll tell you what I believe, without hardware, there is no software. 

Panagiotis: Of course! 

Athanase: Because, the real information is not inside a screen and is not created through a screen. That's what hardware is for. Secondly, my background is mechanical engineering. So if there was no hardware in what we do, I wouldn't be there. 

Panagiotis: Yes, you want screwdrivers. How do you make the first product? 

Athanase: Well, you go to daddy Iraklis' workshop, and you find two or three tools and take them, without asking, you cut a first piece of wood and go to your friend Leandros who was your colleague in university, and say "Hey, Leandros, can you make this construction with a metal sheet machine?" He builds it. He says “Oh well, give me 100 euros, no sweat.” To start, you make the first construction. At first you find an Arduino, a very easily programmable electronic, then take it to the next level and slowly make a first prototype, you show it and if they like it, you sell the prototype. Now, the truth is that the best person to tell you what to make is the potential client. It's not the idea you get. And they won't tell you in a direct way, so, you have to understand. So, it's very important to always keep our ears open. And something that physiotherapists said all too quickly, after seeing the first hardware, was "How could I measure my patient’s strength?" Because, strength is very important in rehabilitation and one of the first ideas was a system which could measure overall strength of the parts of the human body. So, we got the idea of the push, the power meter that we have, which helps evaluate how easily the shoulder turns, the range of the knee, the whole human body. The 

next stage after the push and the power platforms was to give the push to various people to test it, and saw that their first reflex was to grab it and squeeze it. So, I thought "Maybe we should make a grip?” A system that measures hand strength. Are you fit today? 

Panagiotis: Always! 

Athanase: Are you ready for a test? 

Panagiotis: I'll break it! 

Athanase: Well, here's the grip. 

Panagiotis: This is the grip. 

Athanase: So, we have a patient here. 

Panagiotis: It is one of the 8 devices that you have built. 

Athanase: Exactly, it was the third we designed. 

Panagiotis: The third one. 

Athanase: I have a patient here, whose name is Panagiotis and he's 38 years old. Panagiotis: Perfect. 

Athanase: OK? So, I'll be able to compare you. 

Panagiotis: He's a bit older than me. 

Athanase: Okay, fine! Well, yeah! You're right! Evaluation, we'll take the grip here then. Anytime you want, I'll tell you when, 5 seconds max. 

Panagiotis: Yes. 

Athanase: Think of something that makes you angry. 

Panagiotis: I’ve got it! I’ve got it! 

Athanase: Are you ready? 

Panagiotis: Yes.

 

Athanase: Try your best, go, go, go! Bravo, 47 kilos! Bravo! Let's go now to the left. 

Panagiotis: Did I break it, maybe? 

Athanase: No, don't worry, it takes more. Try your best! We're at 45 kilos, you're doing very well, you can stop. Well, let's see our results now. 

Panagiotis: It's a record, I think. 

Athanase: 45 kilos on the left, 47 on the right... with 5% asymmetry, 5% is nothing, super! 

Panagiotis: Yes! 

Athanase: And also, I don't know if you see here, we have in red the average of men your age. 

Panagiotis: I'm above it. 

Athanase: You're above it. 

Panagiotis: I knew it. Way up. 

Athanase: Yes! Not too much. But enough. 

Panagiotis: I knew it! For me, it is a lot. 

Athanase: Well, so this is the evaluation part. But let's look at the rehabilitation part. 

Panagiotis: Yes. 

Athanase: So, we created a series of serious games, rehabilitation games, which we can access directly with Karl, the Kangaroo. 

Panagiotis: OK! 

Athanase: Why a kangaroo? I'll tell you later. So, we'll take Karl, on whom we're going to work 60% of your maximum strength. Just the right part. Okay? Just the right hand for 30 seconds. Are you ready? 

Panagiotis: What do I do now? 

Athanase: Hold it and when you squeeze, you control Karl who goes low to find various treasures in the depths of the sea. 

Panagiotis: As I squeeze, he goes up. 

Athanase: As you squeeze, he goes down.

Panagiotis: Going down, OK. 

Athanase: Ready? 

Panagiotis: Yes. 

Athanase: And of course, you have to avoid the sharks and the jellyfish. Panagiotis: Great. 

Athanase: OK? Now the game is loading. Karl the Kangaroo, is an orange kangaroo and when you give him blue clothes, he becomes the Kinvent color. 

Panagiotis: How nice! 

Athanase: So now, try to avoid the shark, try to get these treasures.Good! Good! Bravo, Panagiotis, you are doing great! 

Panagiotis: I'm perfect. 

Athanase: So, imagine now that this is what all patients do in physiotherapy and so do the great athletes. 

Panagiotis: The first devices you made, did you make them yourself? Had you already started bringing a team around you? Tell us a little bit about those early days. 

Athanase: At first you do it yourself. 

Panagiotis: On your own. 

Athanase: You buy a screwdriver, so to speak, in the tinker shop next to the basement where you started making them. Where you've also got the Norton, dad's engine that you're rebuilding, and you do it all side by side, so, a little grease gets in, but it’s OK. And then when you have the first two, three, four orders, you say "Now wait, I have to go sell them, I have to show them, I can't be going and building them at the same time.” So, you hire the first employee. Our first employee in Thessaloniki was Themis. Themis, who is still with us today, 7 years now. He was 19 years old and today, he is 26. He grew up with Kinvent. You find one and then you find a second one. And then, you want to go to an exhibition, but then, there are many customers, you can hire the first salesperson. There's Benoit in France, and slowly the team grows. At first, you have to find out if the product has its place in the market. You make the first sales and then, slowly, you have to build the team. So, we looked through profiles with more experience, and gradually Kinvent today has reached 80 people overall. 40-45 in France, 30 in Thessaloniki, and a team now in Spain, and another one in America.

Panagiotis: How does it feel when you see things you make in a basement by yourself or with the first one or two people who approach you and surround you? How does it feel when it starts really having an impact, and that people — it solves problems for people? 

Athanase: That's where it starts to get interesting. It's not ultimately that interesting to plan. The interesting part is when you see the butterflies in the customer’s stomach, who says, "Yes, I want it now." "But it's a prototype." "Never mind, I want it now." There's the good part. 

Panagiotis: What makes your company special? What makes your solutions stand out? 

Athanase: We don't start with innovation. We start from what the market needs, so we adapted our knowledge in biokinetics, to the market itself. Now, when you start doing that, you start setting limits — at the end, it’s the product’s specifications. That is, it should be possible for the physiotherapist to turn it on and start it up within 15 seconds. With a maximum of 3 clicks. It must be lightweight, last long enough without needing charging, the charger must be sturdy. I mean, we go into great detail. And finally, when you show them something, they don’t have to search for hours in the literature to understand, and they must be able to explain it to the patient in 2 seconds. So, that's where all the specifications come in, so that you can take them all into account. That's where you have to innovate. Because the solutions out there are not appropriate. We saw why these technologies did not exist, say, in physiotherapy. Why didn’t they? Because, until then, the physiotherapist had to go to 10 different companies to get 20 different devices, who weren't talking to each other. Take it off the small screen, write it on a paper and then in an Excel, to generate the report, to send it to the doctor. And of course, pay a fortune to get all the equipment, which is why, up until that time, physiotherapists did not bother. So, to be able to resolve this, we played in many fields. First, with the sensors we have inside. So, we have a very special technology of sensors and electronics, which allows us to build a very accurate system. We are the most accurate in the market, without it costing a fortune. Let's say, that grip you just played with, which is also a medical device, costs 300 euros. Equivalent devices on the market up to 6-7 years ago cost 1,000-2,000 euros. And of course, no physiotherapist was buying them. So one thing is the hardware. Then it's industrialization. Precisely because physical therapists have 1,000 different conditions to work on, you can't do that with one hardware. So, you need to create a range. But to create a range, without a 100 million euro budget, you'll have to find tricks. One trick was to make sensors and electrodes a standard among the various sensors. The other trick is, OK, how do we show this information? We'll show it on a mobile, everyone has a mobile phone.Yes, but how do you transfer it to the mobile? And then came Bluetooth. Yes, but Bluetooth causes problems. Because you can't transfer a lot of information. We are talking about a measurement that is done 1,000 times per second on our sensors, so we had to find tricks there. The biggest of all is this information coming raw from the sensor — how to show it in a way that everyone understands. Even the patient and the athlete. And that's where biokinetics comes in, and somehow we simplify everything. The background information is complicated, and the equations are even more complicated. But what we show in front, as you saw, is one, two maximum values so you can know that you have 4.8% asymmetry, and you can trust that the machine shows it correctly. If you need to search for more data, for example, your explosiveness when you do it, it’s there, further down. 

Panagiotis:Tell us a little about the range at the moment? It is 8 different products. How are these doing commercially right now? 

Athanase: Well, we have 8 products. The first, as you saw, is the grip, the second is the push, which is the strength measurement sensor. The push goes with the pull, a sensor again, for strong muscle groups. The two types of platforms that we were talking about before. A small one for balance and a big one for strength and sports. Then we have an electromyograph, a sensor that we put, stick onto the muscle, and it measures the muscle activity, the contraction, and then a motion sensor, a pressure sensor, for biofeedback, to show the patient how to do an exercise. Now we have another sensor coming out in 2025. 

Panagiotis: Do any one of them have a commercial lead? Some of them, I guess, are older. 

Athanase: Yes, yes. Some came out first. But you know what? The ones we designed earlier are the ones that sell the best. They are the most used. One is the pressure sensor, the push, of which we sell around 500 to 800 a month. 

Panagiotis: OK, wow! 

Athanase: Yes, and another one is the platforms. The platforms on which we can do sports moves, which, at the moment, have a high demand in Europe but mainly in America, i.e. not only for rehabilitation but also for sports. We just sent some to Stanford, to Princeton, to the Mayo Clinic. 

Panagiotis: OK. 

Athanase: These are all Kinvent customers, which usually have one of the two. And of course, along with these, comes the whole range. We have in fact some techniques. Let's say the push is also used as a trojan horse. Someone who is not sure if they want to start with this measurement mentality, they start with a push. 

Panagiotis: Which is cheaper, I guess, and easier to adopt. 

Athanase: Right! And it's a multi-tool. They start with this, and, at the end, we leave them for 6 months to 12 months. And we enter with the rest. 

Panagiotis: You create products, you put them on the market. I'm sure you get very good feedback, they are improved. It makes a lot of sense to me that the older ones, your older devices, the first ones you produced, are the ones that are doing better commercially because, I guess, you get a lot of feedback from the market. 

Athanase: Yes.

Panagiotis: And you improve them. How do you see this developing commercially? 

Athanase: Rehabilitation is ultimately the big stake. It is there where the planet needs help, healthcare. We are getting increasingly older. We want to have the best aging possible, so, in health, we have a much greater impact than we have in sports. I'll give you an example. Raphael Varane, do you know him? 

Panagiotis: Yes, of course, the footballer. 

Athanase: The defense player in the French national team until 2 years ago.Raphael Varane is an investor in Kinvent. 

Panagiotis: OK. 

Athanase: In 2021, before going to the Euro, I was in a clinic where he was testing his new soles, and we put him on the platforms to measure him. With this measurement, we helped him choose them. So, the next day, I got a call from his surgeon, and he said, "We want to join Kinvent together," and they joined. So, every three or four days, Raphael has these platforms at his home in Manchester, where he was until now, and he was doing tests. His surgeon sees him in Montpellier, and he can tell him if he should play or not. Very well, so we change the way Raphael plays. 

Panagiotis: You protect him from injuries. 

Athanase: Exactly, but imagine Grandma Michaela, who, at 75 years old, could not walk because of arthritis. She had knee arthroplasty and then, thanks to her rehabilitation, she can walk again. The impact is much greater. 

Panagiotis: This rehabilitation, you are decreasing it, making it more focused, more fun. Which one? All of them? 

Athanase: It's gets more... We motivate Mrs. Michaela, because, instead of doing her exercises with two bands, she does them with Κarl the Kangaroo, and we also give the correct measurement to the physiotherapist who can see if the treatment they have started is working for Mrs. Michaela. Because they have the right measurement that says, look at Mrs. Michaela, her center of gravity is moving on a surface of 10 square millimetres whereas before, it was at 50. So, Mrs. Michaela is becoming more stable, so, we're changing Mrs. Michaela's life. Today, we help physiotherapists, but tomorrow, I want to get into patients’ homes and give them more autonomy, but always with a physiotherapist watching from behind. 

Panagiotis: Where are you with the medical part, the science behind it? 

Athanase: Yes, very important because we’re in the healthcare sector. 

Panagiotis: Of course!

Athanase: And, what we give the patient, we have to guarantee that it's doing the job it's supposed to. That's why the main thing is ISO 13.485, very specific to medical equipment, which we've had for five years, but we have been a CE medical device from the company’s beginning, and it was really, from the beginning, the company's logic to set it up in such a way, so it could enter this market. 

Panagiotis: Where do you produce, where do you manufacture these devices and what have you learned from it? Because I'm sure this is a chapter in itself. 

Athanase: Production is in-house at Kinvent. So, we have set up a workshop — I call it, not a factory — a 2,000 sq.m. workshop in Thessaloniki, where Kinvent's offices are located in Thessaloniki. And we've got about 25 people inside who are working in production. The truth is that hardware is at the heart of what we do because it's what gives accuracy, and it is also what the professionals hold in their hands. And having it internally has helped us in so many ways. First, we are much faster. If we have an idea, until we get it to the market— one example is K-Myo, the electromyograph that we launched in October. We had the idea 12 months earlier, maybe 14. 14 months to make a prototype, to test it with customers, to build the app and put it into production with standard medical equipment, it is very powerful. 

Panagiotis: Extremely fast. 

Athanase: It's very powerful, and you don’t have to build 5,000 at once; you can see if the market wants them. This one especially was very strong. It's the third best product we sell. 

Panagiotis: Great. 

Athanase: It went really well. This is one reason that it gives us speed. The other is that it ensures quality because we know how to build it, so, it helps a lot. So, our current location is near the airport of Thessaloniki. We started with one person as I said, Themis, and today, we have Thodoris who manages the production line with experience from the Greek industry, and there are some things that we let others do for us. Let’s say, we have designed the plastic casing, we send it to a mold maker and he makes the mold. We have designed the electronics and our board is manufactured by a supplier in France, and finally, all these come to Thessaloniki and that's where all the magic happens. We try very hard to have our suppliers close by, as close as possible, especially in Europe, because we have also noticed that Europe is slowly becoming de-industrialized over the last decades and it is important to keep them here. Of course, some things we can't have here, so, we have suppliers in Asia and in America, but we generally try to keep them close by. You know, it's also a wager for the environment. 

Panagiotis: Absolutely! Sure! And it is certainly a great asset for the local economy to be able to produce things in this economy...Especially for Greece.

Athanase: Yes, it is important. 

Panagiotis: We need more hardware companies, we need a lot more production. Beyond all the commercial success and all that you have done, you have received, and it makes sense, you have received great support from the market. You recently even raised a Series A round where the lead, the one who led this round is a private equity in France, Eurazeo, one of the top in the world, 35 billion in funds under management, we're talking about a giant. You have 

also raised from Greek investors in the UniFund, as I know it's for you. Talk to us a little bit about this, about raising money and starting to get traction, see things, see the market embracing you. I would also add your participation in the Endeavor Scale-Up. We can talk about that, but talk to us about the financing and these stages. What have you learned? 

Athanase: Yes, 3 stages today at Kinvent in terms of financing. The first one in 2019 with Uni.fund and some business angels in France, which helped us to set up a first production and sale unit with two sellers, three and a small production. This was in 2019. In 2021, 2.5 million in the second stage, plus 3.5 million in aid from France. Which helped us to set up a stronger international sales team and in the background, a first marketing, a key marketing. A third round of 16 million now at the end of 2023 to become the pioneers in our industry, and become the pioneers in the world. Whatever the round, you should never lose focus, because a company is not built to live on outside help, it's built to be able to make a profit. And that's the purpose of Kinvent. It is very important, what we make, until we sell it, to be left with something positive, in the end. 

Panagiotis: Somewhere in the course of the 6 years, or 7, of Kinvent, you have also Montpellier. You start a team in Montpellier. 

Athanase: Yes. 

Panagiotis: Tell us, how did that come about? I know that the city has a history with sports. 

Athanase: It has. I'll tell you. Kinvent is a company with two main units. One is in Thessaloniki and the other at the headquarters of Montpellier, France. At first, the headquarters was not in Montpellier, but in Paris. Why France? I'm half French, so that helps... but also because France is generally a very active healthcare market. Also, in sports, so, it was a good place to start. We had an existing network, so, we started with Paris. Well, official version. Montpellier, a very athletic city, perhaps the most athletic in France, with a very strong rugby team, football, handball, volleyball teams. With a very strong healthcare system, with the oldest medical school in the world still active. 

Panagiotis: Wow! 

Athanase: In Montpellier, and very big universities, where everybody knows everybody. So, I arrived in Montpellier and the next month I had an appointment with the rugby team or with the university's super rheumatologist, who is known across Europe. Well, this is the official version. At the same time, my wife, Matilde, in 2018 got her degree in speech therapy and said, "Athanase, we'll stay in Montpellier," and I said, "OK, whatever you say," and so, we started in Montpellier. At the time, I had two employees, when I brought them they were also very happy because... 

Panagiotis: Oh, you brought them! 

Athanase: From Paris to Montpellier. Yes, yes. From Paris to Montpellier. So, today the company is in Montpellier. 

Panagiotis: It's a beautiful city. 

Athanase: Very nice. 

Panagiotis: And about a month ago, among everything else, as well as the publicity you've gotten especially with the last round, I consider it to be one of the top rounds that have occurred in the ecosystem. Especially in recent years. It is very important that Eurazeo entered. It gave us a very strong win and shows us the future. It also shows what is coming in the next few years. At the same time, you enter the Scale-Up program, which is the program set up by the Endeavor organization for companies that are in a Series A round and they are ready to do this global domination, this conquest of the world, and become world leaders in what they do. And this program aspires to produce the next entrepreneurs, i.e. the companies that are actually leading the change in their industries. How important is it for you to have an ecosystem of support? 

Athanase: Exactly because we are growing and we are in the company and active, sometimes what we need is while we are "nose to the wheel," a French expression, we need someone to say "Athanase, Thanasis, take a step back. Look at it from a distance." And this role is played by our investors and such programs. I mean, Endeavor. It helped me a lot when you asked me the questions. Why are you here? How do you think the company should grow? What are the important countries you should go to? What's the sector? All this helps me and my team to get some distance, to go a little higher and see the big picture. And the second very important thing is the network. We're talking about a global network. One month ago, we were in Brazil and you brought us in touch with the local ecosystem, which put us in contact with the director of the startup dealing with insurance companies in São Paulo. Awesome! Such connections are very important because, as you said, we want to be the great power in physiotherapy and rehabilitation in the coming years and all these synergies are fantastic for us. 

Panagiotis: Has it changed since this round, the targeting? Is it a round where the amount that comes to fund your next plans has changed your orientation at all? 

Athanase: You know what? I think it helped us a lot, especially Eurazeo and Uni.fund and all the investors that we have, to concentrate. Because, the truth is that when you start, you want to try a lot of things to see which one works best, but after a certain point, you really have to concentrate. And that's where everybody helps a lot to say, "Look, Thanasis, we need to focus. What is the next big geographic market?.” We know it's America, North America. In 2024, the big challenge we have is America itself, that is, to set up a team there to do the marketing that is needed, so that we can enter this market dynamically. Good. In terms of product? We were thinking about, say, getting into fitness. We also did tests and saw that fitness is probably not a strong market. So, focus. Leave fitness to the side. Let's find out which is the strong market. Currently, that is physical therapy, and to get inside, let's use as a Trojan horse high-level sports. In America, we already started to sign with football teams, with baseball teams, with hockey teams, and these are the teams that help you get in faster. We don't try to get in everywhere, because that would be wrong. We see the United States as a continent with 52 countries and the two we start with are Florida and around New York. 

Panagiotis: From sports, is there any focus that has emerged for any reason? 

Athanase: Yes, we're talking mostly about team sports for one main reason unfortunately. The budget. Team sports have budgets that individual sports do not have. 

Panagiotis: Because, you get the same device for 15 - 20 people? 

Athanase: It's also that you have people coming to see the stadium. You have athletes who have a certain salary from another level, they are the teams that have a staff with 3 physiotherapists and another 5 coaches, so, it's easier to get in. For example, ping pong is not so easy for us. 

Panagiotis: Yes! 

Athanase: Of course, at least, we have it in France. Federations working with us already have handball, basketball, volleyball, track, judo, weightlifting, football, rugby. All these work with Kinvent, the team sports are just easier. 

Panagiotis: I think it's the right time to play a game. I have these cards that have a word on the back and the word is associated with entrepreneurship. We would like to hear your definition and maybe we can have a discussion around it afterwards. Pick a card at random, say the word in Greek. 

Athanase: Strength, resilience, or in French, résilience. 

Panagiotis: Oh, là là! But what does strength and resilience mean to you? 

Athanase: It means that if you have setbacks or if things are not as you expect, this doesn’t mean that you give up. Sometimes, where there are setbacks there is opportunity. 

Panagiotis: Are you extra optimistic or is it just me?

Athanase: In general, you have to look at things positively. If in everything you do, you see the negative more than the positive, you are not an entrepreneur and very soon you will quit. So, you have to start there and the second important thing is, you have to be optimistic in your relationships with people. Start by trusting. OK, if they betray you at some point, this happens too. What can we do? 

Panagiotis: Does the company’s mission help you? You are very connected with it. 

Athanase: That helps a lot. Also, you know what helps? The clients we have, physiotherapists and coaches, they're good people, which means they're easy. That is, when you knock on a door and go into a physical therapy clinic, they won't say, "Go on, get out of here." They'll say "Sorry, I'm not available at the moment, send an email there." They won't answer the email, so, you have to give them a call, and you'll get the appointment. But generally they are that kind of people. That helps. And also what helps is to have around us in the team such people, and the truth is that I say to everyone who enters Kinvent, "Have confidence in your colleagues because they are trying as hard as you are.” 

Panagiotis: I know, during the years of Kinvent, you had 3 children and if I understand correctly, there are a couple of relocations in this story. From one city where we live alone as a family to another. Tell us a little bit about your personal life and how it fits in, and how much it makes your journey as an entrepreneur easier or harder. 

Athanase: Mathilde helped a lot here. 

Panagiotis: Your wife. 

Athanase: Who is French and we met in Clermont-Ferrand, at Michelin. It's been 15 years. Mathilde has always been a support and that's very important because a company is not something we build by ourselves, and when we come home at night, we must feel that we are in a safe harbour, i.e. a calm harbour, where there is calm, and of course, we must not bring the waves from outside in this harbour. So, that helped a lot, and now we have 3 children, Cassandra, Clea, and Alexandra, five, four and two years old today who speak French, they speak Greek, they take the plane for fun. And they're happy kids, so that's where Mathilde helps a lot. 

Panagiotis: Have you gotten them screwdrivers? 

Athanase: Of course! We started with toys and then when we do some tinkering at home.They come and help. 

Panagiotis: Tell us a little bit about future plans. You're on a very solid footing right now. Athanase: Yes!

Panagiotis: And you're ready, right? As things stand now, you're ready to launch. Thanasis who sees the opportunities of the future and where is your compass right now? 

Athanase: Geographically it is on the other side of the Atlantic. In Europe, we are already very strong, so, now in 2024, we're looking at North America. 2025 - 2026, probably Asia. 

Panagiotis: Great! 

Athanase: Geographically that is. And then for professionals, we want to go stronger with patients and help them from a distance. So, you're going to do your ligament rehabilitation once a week at the physiotherapist but the rest of the time you have to work at home. So, we want to help you work at home as you are monitored by the physiotherapist. I want to go there, and we have started to add new technologies. We talk a lot about artificial intelligence. It's actually a very powerful statistic, where we get all the data we have from our database, which is the largest on the planet in terms of physiotherapy. 

Panagiotis: So, in the future, you may change the way in which rehabilitation is carried out. Athanase: And that's exactly what we want to do in the next 4 years. 

Panagiotis: The team? How do you see it evolving? 

Athanase: Today, we are between two places, mainly Thessaloniki and Montpellier. I can see us having a big part in America very soon, mainly on the east coast, we have already started to set up the teams in Spain, and very soon, in 2025, we will probably have a small part in Asia. And we want to see a bit of South America. Brazil has started in the last few months to knock at our door, so we're very interested in that. And in general, all of our teams need some empowerment. You know when you're on this Scale-Up track after a certain point, you change the profile of the people around you. I see it from the beginning of the company, so, seven years ago we were 3-4. Today, we have 3 PhDs in the team, 5 others with MBAs, and it's getting bigger and bigger. 

Panagiotis: Do we have, as Greece, the talent and the outstanding talent which we believe we have, does it exist? A quality in our human resources, who I know are competitive mainly in terms of cost, we often say there it is also quality. Is this true? 

Athanase: Yes! I am very happy that in Thessaloniki, if we want a programmer and we need him, we will find him in a month and we know he will be loyal because, we also have a nice working environment. We innovate internationally in health, in sports. Great! Also engineers, we generally find engineers in Greece, because they have a very good level of education and there's not much competition to tell the truth. Greek industry is not as strong as it is in France, so, we also create a good environment and keep them. On the other hand, just because we don't have much of an industrial culture as a country, there are some jobs that we have trouble filling. For example, experience in finance and experience in sales, in international sales or marketing, so, we, as Kinvent, try to get the best of both worlds. That's why for us the fact that we are between two countries is positive and we never say that Kinvent is French or Greek. Kinvent is a European company. 

Panagiotis: Do you have a dream? Do you think there are opportunities for Greece that we should pursue? 

Athanase: Of course, of course! That is to start from the basics. Greece alone is not a strong market, except for specific sectors such as tourism, food. 

Panagiotis: Shipping. 

Athanase: Shipping. But otherwise, it is a country where if you create something here, you have to go directly to the global market. This was something that we learned very quickly at Kinvent and quickly put it into action and we saw it in contrast to France. In France, the ecosystem is quite closed nationally. That is, most of the companies that I have around me in Montpellier, try to build something for the French market and then have a hard time getting across the border. We had this from the beginning and it helps a lot. 

Panagiotis: We are born with this culture and mentality. 

Athanase: Yes, of course! 

Panagiotis: Greece is not our addressable market in technology, at least. Athanase: Exactly! 

Panagiotis: And this does indeed end up being a strong advantage. 

Athanase: And Greeks are generally very international people. In our company, everyone we have in Greece speaks English. And even though they have only graduated from high school, they speak English. In France, they have an MBA after 5-6 years and they still don't speak English. 

Panagiotis: Book or podcast? 

Athanase: Book. 

Panagiotis: Good. Early bird or night owl? 

Athanase: Early bird. 

Panagiotis: Early bird. What time do you wake up? 

Athanase: 06:30. 

Panagiotis: 06:30 in the morning? Wow! Coffee or tea?

Athanase: Coffee. 

Panagiotis: Coffee? You're thinking about it. 

Athanase: Yes, because my wife drinks tea. 

Panagiotis: Because it's usually only coffee and nothing else. What is even tea?! Well, if you could have dinner with a historical figure, which one would you choose to go to dinner with and why? 

Athanase: Probably Newton. 

Panagiotis: OK, there you go. 

Athanase: An engineer! What can I say! Or Leonardo da Vinci. 

Panagiotis: Leonardo da Vinci. What technology? Now, go ahead and tell us, you, the engineer who makes technology, you eat technology for breakfast, what technology you can't live without? 

Athanase: So, I can't live without it? 

Panagiotis: Without it, yes. 

Athanase: Or with it? 

Panagiotis: Without it. 

Athanase: That's a tough question, so, let's say, I won't tell you the electric car because it’s not true. 

Panagiotis: Yes, don't tell me cellphone because It's 9 out of 10 answers. 

Athanase: No, no, no. You know what? I think medical technology. Simple things. So, can you live without being able to get an x-ray? 

Panagiotis: Yes. 

Athanase: You can't. 

Panagiotis: More to the point and the most spot on answer. Is there a city you love to travel to for business? 

Athanase: Sure. San Diego. 

Panagiotis: Yes.

Athanase: And Madrid. 

Panagiotis: Okay, San Diego I guess. Because you're looking at America. Athanase: Yeah, and it's a nice city, too. 

Panagiotis: Madrid how? Because of basketball? 

Athanase: Madrid, because it's a nice place and because they speak Spanish well, so, that helps and it's a market which is slowly going up for us, that is, we just set up a team there. 

Panagiotis: Is there a book that has influenced you, that has changed your life, that has affected you? 

Athanase: Book, 24 Steps to Entrepreneurship. It was written by an engineer, I think, from Stanford, and it explained what the 24 basic steps are to make a product and go sell it. 

Panagiotis: Did it help you in the beginning? 

Athanase: Very much! Because it was explaining a bit of that logic of "Don't think about it too much." You have to take action and most importantly get in touch with those who know best to tell you "This is useful," your potential customers. If I can add a second good one. 

Panagiotis: Of course. 

Athanase: Mom's Test. When you go to ask your mom and say, "Mom, I want to make an app that gives you recipes. Are you willing to pay 40 euros for it? Your mom won't say no. 

Panagiotis: "Yes, son", she’ll say. 

Athanase: "Yes, son". "Come now and eat some spaghetti", she will say on the inside, because later you'll be starving. 

Panagiotis: Thank you for the nice tips for our listeners, who are thinking of starting a startup. Is there any advice you've received that has stayed with you, you carry along? 

Athanase: Yes, listen to all opinions and don't walk away from yours. That is, keep your ears open, listen to advice, wherever it comes from, and in the end decide for yourself. 

Panagiotis: If you weren't involved in what you're doing now, being the founder of Kinvent, what do you think you would do? 

Athanase: I would still be an engineer. 

Panagiotis: An engineer. 

Athanase: Yes, without doubt. Definitely, engineer.

Panagiotis: The last question we ask here, for 5 seasons now, all our guests. What do you think makes an entrepreneur an Outlier? 

Athanase: Listening and keeping their ears open. Not being afraid to decide for themselves and knowing where they want to go, and third, to have confidence in people and optimism. 

Panagiotis: Thanasis, thank you very much. 

Athanase: My pleasure!