Roberto Coustas & Konstantinos Kyriakopoulos, DeepSea: Innovation that is Changing the Rules in Shipping

Roberto: Difficulty is also part of training. You have to experience all these difficulties to reach a point afterwards where you can manage more people, a bigger company, more revenue and not essentially “crash”. Panagiotis: Welcome to the fifth season and the fourth episode of Outliers, of the Endeavour Greece Podcast series hosted at our offices. Here we discover stories of people who shape the future and redefine entrepreneurship. Today we host Roberto Coustas and Konstantinos Kyriakopoulos, founders of DeepSea, a company that is modernizing and automating the shipping industry through artificial intelligence. Panagiotis: Konstantinos, Roberto, welcome. Konstantinos: Welcome. Roberto: Welcome. Panagiotis: I'm so glad we're here together and that we’ll get a chance to speak about a very interesting story which you've created, DeepSea, and all the things that have happened. We have a lot to talk about and I would like to begin with what DeepSea does. Konstantinos: We basically apply artificial intelligence to shipping to optimize the ship itself, i.e. all decisions taken for a ship, the speed that it will take at any given time, control of the engine, how it will be chartered, where it will go etc., for all this to be done more efficiently, using data and artificial intelligence. We mainly have software products in the cloud, software as a service, but we also have systems that we install on the ship itself and data collection for engine automation. Panagiotis: What I find very interesting is that you talked about artificial intelligence long before it became a hype so, in 2017 DeepSea starts. Roberto: That's right. It was founded in '17, we started in '16, meaning we came up with the original idea back when artificial intelligence was just in the universities. We had just finished up, myself my postgraduate degree, and Konstantinos a postgraduate degree from Cambridge and then, at this stage, only Facebook, Google and very large companies basically had research departments. There was not even any data to make this thing work when we started. Panagiotis: Starting from that younger age, your childhood, what it has contributed to this story that you are creating, still creating. I love that while I have two guests across from me I am having one conversation, you have known each other since you were children. Tell us a little bit about that. Where, how... Konstantinos: First of all, our parents are best men so we’re sort of spiritual brothers-in-law, so I've known Roberto since he was, like, two or three years old. Roberto: We would see each other 6 months out of the year, Christmas, Easter, summer usually and there was always a space and we would always catch up. And through one of those catch ups, it was just as soon as we had finished our studies when we hadn't seen each other for 1.5 or 2 years, we hadn't met and we had a catch up, looked at where we were and essentially launched DeepSea through a discussion which we will talk about in more detail in a little while, how exactly it happened. Panagiotis: Thinking a bit from my own experience it's very nice when you have some relationships where you may have months or even years to see someone, the day you're with them it's like you’ve been together every day. Konstantinos, Roberto: Exactly. Panagiotis: I guess that's kind of how you are. Tell me a little bit about your school days, your student years, all of that, did that contribute to entrepreneurship? Roberto: If I start from school, let's say, as a student I was never a good student at school, especially in high school I had almost failed twice due to absences. I was going through a phase at the time where generally I did ok when I wanted to, but this type of thing when you’re not into it and you're in high school you don't have some particular, shall we say, goal so why should you study. And what really changed things for me personally was when I saw a documentary by Al Gore called "An Inconvenient Truth", which at the time was... This is also tied with some fires that were raging one summer in Greece, which is now a very common occurrence and I felt that the world was being destroyed around us in front of our eyes and nobody was doing anything about it or about climate change. And then I started reading, let's say, Scientific American. I would go and pick up the magazine and I got more involved in the sciences slowly and I wanted to study Environmental Engineering, I mean, at first I didn't have... What happened afterwards, connecting the dots that ultimately it has an impact on the environment, what we do, was something I didn't know at first, in other words when I started. Panagiotis: Were you studying? Roberto: So, I went to UCL to study and ended up choosing mechanical engineering because it was more generalized and included an environmental aspect, in case I wanted to pursue that direction. Gradually, I started getting more involved with various inventions. For example, in college, I created a shoe that could charge your cell phone while you walked, although it was extremely uncomfortable. It had a turbine at the bottom, which filled with air as you lifted your foot, and when you stepped down, the turbine would spin. It sounded like someone with asthma was constantly walking alongside you. Panagiotis: Did that work? Roberto: It worked. I got a decent grade, so it worked, but the professor told me this thing is of no commercial use. Panagiotis: Fortunately. Konstantinos: Yes, okay. Though, we've heard this before and they were wrong. Roberto: Yes, indeed you never know. Yeah, and eventually, I got involved with computer science again—not exactly by chance. I wanted to take a programming course in college, and as a mechanical engineering student, I figured I'd choose an 'easier' one to get a good grade and improve my GPA. So, we get our first assignment, and I submit it on the very first day the professor assigns it. Because I did really well, he sent me an email saying, “You're overqualified, beyond the level needed for this course, so you can't continue in it.” He then tells me I have to choose another course from the computer science department. The only one available, he says, is artificial intelligence and neural networks, and he warns me that everyone who isn’t a computer science major has failed it. So, good luck. So in short... Panagiotis: Did you take it? Roberto: I took the course without knowing where it would lead, just like how we often talk about “connecting the dots”. At the time, I had no idea that taking that course would eventually lead me to pursue a master’s degree in the same field and everything that followed. Panagiotis: So you're doing a master's degree in artificial intelligence. Roberto: Yes at Oxford then, yes. We are starting to connect the dots, how DeepSea is a story that starts talking about artificial intelligence much earlier than anyone else and certainly in your industry, we need to have that in the picture. Konstantinos, what about you? Konstantinos: I was more like the kid who realizes quickly that he's going to be an engineer when he grows up. So I really liked math and physics and those things as a kid. I used to play with lego mindstorms and stuff like that. I'd say I was a good student from the start. When I was around 12 or 13, a teacher told me I should start writing code, so, like most people I've met, I started playing with Java on my own as a kid. I finished school early and took a gap year in England, meaning I worked for a year before starting university. I did freelance development and even worked as a programmer at Microsoft for a while. After that, I went to study general engineering at Cambridge University. I wasn’t exactly sure what I wanted to do with my life, so I chose general engineering because it covered everything—from civil engineering to electrical engineering. Eventually, I realized I enjoyed the areas related to computers and coding, and that’s how I got into IT. When I saw that the first courses on artificial intelligence were being offered, I was immediately drawn to it. Mostly out of curiosity—since I couldn’t understand how artificial intelligence could even exist or how a computer could think—I decided to dive into the field. That curiosity led me to pursue a PhD, and I ended up staying at Cambridge for much longer. Panagiotis: Somewhere around that time, you must have met up in England, right? Roberto: After England. Panagiotis: After England, so in Greece, back here? Roberto: Yes. Panagiotis: You finish your studies and you face a dilemma of coming back or staying where you are, what leads you to decide to return? Roberto: Basically, if we go, because the idea was not something that happened in one day, I do not know how it happens for other entrepreneurs, but it wasn't something that in one day, one night came to someone and that was it. The idea was something that evolved and formed over several years. The first time I came face to face with the problem, which I didn’t even know we might one day create a company to solve, was during an internship at a shipping company after my second year in the university. The issue at the time was that China was producing new “eco ships,” which promised 15% better fuel efficiency under specific conditions but were significantly more expensive. Shipowners were unsure if it was worth investing in these ships due to the high price, and they were all trying to compare their existing ships with these new ones using Excel, despite having very limited data. Because ship fuel consumption depends on so many variables—like waves, wave height, undercurrents, wind, and direction—it was nearly impossible to compare two entirely different ships using the same data. This problem stuck with me, even though that summer passed, and in the end, the research department at the shipping company didn’t reach any conclusions. Then, when I started a class on artificial intelligence and neural networks, something clicked for me. I walked into the classroom, sat down, and the first thing the professor said was that for complex, multidimensional problems, the best solution is often neural networks. That’s when I made the connection—maybe that problem I encountered back then could be solved using neural network technology. But even then, I had no idea that it would turn into a company; it was just a connection I made in the moment. Later, I did a master’s degree at Oxford, returned to Greece, and one day I met up with Konstantinos, who had finished his master’s at Cambridge and was about to start his PhD. We both realized that we had a deep passion for artificial intelligence and its potential to fundamentally change how the world operates. To me, it's not just a technology that slightly improves an industry, it completely shifts the mindset—especially since, as engineers, we’ve been trained to work in a specific way. As engineers, we’re used to laying down parameters and assumptions, and then solving a problem based on those assumptions. Each assumption simplifies the problem, because you can’t tackle it in all its complexity—you have to reduce it to something manageable to solve. Artificial intelligence changes that entire mindset, and that’s what Konstantinos and I discussed during that long coffee chat we had. Konstantinos, by the way, has always been very modest. My brother is two years older than me, so he’s three years older than Konstantinos. I remember when we were 12 or 13, sitting around the dinner table, and my brother, who was in high school, would be talking about mathematics, while Konstantinos, who was still in middle school, was already working with integrals from a very young age. Panagiotis: Okay, we've realized that... Roberto: He was very good, and the amazing thing is, as we say, it didn’t start as a business idea, even back then we said it would be really cool if we could gather data and run some experiments to see if this technology could truly have an application in this industry. Konstantinos: So essentially we had a conversation about this problem. Back then, we weren’t discussing what we wanted to do with our lives, or what country we wanted to live in, but what I said was, I believe that if you put this into a different network, you could solve the problem. At the time, the best accuracy that the engineers working on this had achieved was around 15%, something like that. So I said, can you send it to me so I can give it a try? He sent it to me. I was on vacation in Paros at the time, and I had a Microsoft Surface, something like a tablet, and I tested it there. I saw that we were able to very quickly reduce the error to 5%, which has now dropped to 1%. So then we met again and said, okay, is anyone else doing this? The answer was no. At the time, I was thinking about what I wanted to do with artificial intelligence. Everyone was focused on the same areas—speech, language processing. I really liked the idea of applying it to something tangible in the real world. So slowly, we started with small steps, and eventually, we had to turn it into a company. Roberto: We didn’t know how this could become a company, but oil is expensive. We figured that knowing how much someone is consuming is important, so someone would be willing to pay for this service, and that’s how we began shaping the idea, and it became what it is today. Panagiotis: The first question that pops up spontaneously here is that okay, you've studied artificial intelligence and neural networks, which I don't know exactly what neural networks are. It would be nice if you could tell us a very quick definition of what neural networks are. Konstantinos: A neural network is essentially a machine that can repeat something it has seen many times. So you have a physical system or some kind of function where you have an input and an output comes out. After seeing it thousands, millions, or billions of times, it can do it. For example, you go to the airport, put your passport into a machine, and it looks at it, checks your face, and says, yes, you’re the same person. How does it do that? Did someone write code to go in and measure the size of your nose? No. The way it works is, they took millions of pairs of photos where in half it was the same person, and in the other half, different people. They trained the system, and now it knows how to find the same person when you give it a pair of images. So this technology, which is something very specific called a neural network, can be used for many different things. For example, ChatGPT, which we’re using now, is exactly the same thing. In other words, they fed it a huge volume of text with questions, answers of various kinds, and now it says, based on all the texts I’ve seen during my training... Panagiotis: I foresee the best solution. Konstantinos: Yes, what was the question, what was the answer, and within the new question that came to me, what is the answer? This, this is what it does. We do the same thing for ships. As strange as it may seem, it is exactly the same. It has seen hundreds of ships for years, every minute, what the weather is like, what the speed is, what the draft is, what the condition of the engine is exactly. So if I now take this ship, which is like this or like that, and put it in such weather at such speed, how much fuel will it consume? Panagiotis: Why didn't someone else do it? What do you think puts you in a leading position? Konstantinos: As is always the case with innovations, some things had to be done before this could happen. One was the interface of the ship with the land via satellite link. Until 2010, ships couldn't communicate with land every minute; there was no data. This technology suddenly allowed shipping companies to have all this data, which at first, we didn't know what to do with. The second thing is that artificial intelligence, although many will say it was invented in the 1970s, which is true, widespread use of it also took off around 2012-2013, mainly due to developments in video games that enabled GPUs to provide the computational power needed to train neural networks with large amounts of data. So it was the right time; it was exactly the right moment, and somehow, the world of artificial intelligence needed to be bridged with the world of shipping, which are two completely different worlds. There aren't many people in either field who deal with the other, and we were in the right place at the right time. Roberto: And because we mentioned before the book Outliers, which specifically states that for any breakthrough in any industry, time and place play a crucial role. We are Greeks, first and foremost. Shipping in Greece is a huge industry that controls the country. Greece has, I think, 0.01% of the world's population but controls 20% of global shipping. In other words, per square kilometer, the number of shipping companies in Athens doesn’t exist anywhere else in the world. That’s the first thing. The second thing, as Konstantinos says, is the availability of data. And thirdly, I did my master's in 2014-2015. In 2014, the professor who taught us at Oxford stayed for six months; he couldn’t stay the whole year. Google took him for DeepMind because it had just started then. So if someone had gone to university two years before that, they wouldn't have had this knowledge. Konstantinos: Now you know 17-year-olds who can build neural networks. Back then, the people who had studied this field very seriously were very few; it was available in only about 10 universities. I think we're the only 2 who got involved in shipping, who completed their studies. Panagiotis: They got picked by other companies and went into other industries, which were very... Konstantinos: They were very few. Now there are many, but we have gained an advantage because we believed in it early on. Panagiotis: That plays a very big part in it, right. Konstantinos: We started then and worked hard on it. Panagiotis: You made the decision at some point to start the company, to found DeepSea, in 2017 if I'm not mistaken. Tell us a little bit about this process, how it is from a simple idea and from some pitches to some shipping companies for it to become a tangible company. Konstantinos: It's slow at first and then very fast. It is an extremely educational process, it’s something we've never done before.... Panagiotis: You created the company in Greece, right? Roberto: In Greece. Konstantinos: In the beginning it was a project, we set out to find some of the above engineers to help us get it set up, to find some funding from European projects to somehow build the first platform and give it to some shipping companies to try it out. That's how it started. Then, we went and raised money from the first VC in Greece and then that's where we had to, you get to a point where, okay, now we have to get serious because this is used by real people who need it in their daily lives, things break down, we need to learn how a company is created, how procedures are performed, what are the roles you need, so this all happened very quickly in '18. Roberto: I think the most difficult thing is in the beginning. I don't even know how we made the decision now that we look back at it, because we didn't know at all how to build a company and we started it, not having in our minds that yes we will aim for DeepSea to become a company with 100 employees. We had a goal, okay, the project is interesting, it’s heading somewhere and I think that if we make it, perhaps a couple of customers will want it who had expressed interest in 2-4 ships. So, step by step, we navigated the process, and initially, we had no real understanding of what running a business entailed or what raising funds meant. We were concerned that if a fund came on board, they might take over our company, which was something we wanted to avoid. It was during this period that the company really started taking shape, operating from 2017 until early 2019. We began relatively late, as Konstantinos mentioned, with our first customers in Greece. Since we didn’t have the resources to hire experienced staff, our team was quite young. We recruited interns from the National Technical University of Athens, reaching out via LinkedIn to see if anyone was interested in a summer internship. These interns were familiar with artificial intelligence and found it exciting that a Greek company was working on such cutting-edge technology. By 2019, we had a team of 7-8 people with an average age of 22-23. We were all focused on solving problems and building a platform for leading shipping companies. We provided our service to a Greek customer who had purchased a pilot for two ships. Installing the system and collecting data from the ships was a significant challenge because it was our first time doing it. We managed the entire process from scratch, from data collection to delivering the platform. One day, our customer’s office showcased our platform to a charterer who visited them. The charterer was impressed and called us two days later, inviting us to their headquarters in Geneva. I, Konstantinos, and Simos Hadjigeorgiou went, who was the first person we had that wasn’t tech-oriented and was more business-focused. He handled everything from marketing to sales and beyond. We transitioned from being a company which if you look at it was not a serious company in the sense that the screens we had were used ones that we had sourced from other organizations that no longer needed them, the office was a bit of a mess—it was far from what you’d expect from a well-established company… Panagiotis: It was a Startup. Roberto: Totally, totally a startup. We went to their offices in Geneva, which was a massive building for a huge multinational corporation. When we arrived, there were 9 people from their side just for the meeting, which was more people than our entire company at that time. They asked us to wait a moment while they set up a conference call with additional team members from other countries. While we were there, we didn’t fully grasp what was going on. During the meeting, they reviewed the platform. The really exciting part of the story is that, although they probably knew the stage we were at, they placed a lot of trust in us—a rarity for startups, where making sales is generally very challenging. This person, who was the global head of assets with a significant role, saw two young guys with a genuine drive to create and passion for what they were doing. He gave us a tremendous opportunity by suggesting that, since we could analyze how ships behave using artificial intelligence, perhaps we could also enhance the routes of ships in the future. We assured him that we could, and that was indeed the next product we were working on. Panagiotis: Which you were actually working on or? Roberto: Yes, we had started and we knew it was needed, that it’s the next step, we just didn't have the capabilities to do a second product, we hadn't even started… Konstantinos: Basically what we actually had at the beginning was an idea and a proof of concept, which is in the form of a product. This person, George, saw that our solution could address the problem and asked, "Can you tailor it like that?"... And it’s at that point that we start, and we go in, having this contract as well, which we use to raise money more seriously say okay now we're going to make a product, i.e. we aimed to develop a product that truly fits the market—a product that considers the global market and its needs, so we could sell it to someone who isn’t just buying an idea but is purchasing a product that will save them money. This was crucial for us because we realized we could create something that, even if a customer doesn’t believe in us or wants to support young entrepreneurs, they would still benefit financially from using our product. This ability to offer a tangible benefit was extremely important for us. Panagiotis: And to provide the other perspective, when a large multinational decides to back an idea early on, they are the ones who benefit first from it. Very important for them themselves to be there and to truly support new ideas and new initiatives. At the time you go for the meeting, you’ve secured some European funding, correct? It’s 2019, and you have raised just one round of funding, which is a specific amount... Konstantinos: Had we actually raised money in Greece? Roberto: We didn't raise any, we had received from a European program 150.000. Panagiotis: But with the advantage of a strong partnership with a global player, you then go on to raise more serious funding, including a round with serious heavyweight angel investors. Can you tell us a bit about the funding process? There have been 2-3 rounds... Roberto: Generally speaking, something important for anyone listening who hasn’t yet raised funds is that, without exception, all the VCs in Greece and abroad initially said no to investing. Nobody believed in the idea until they saw the Cargill logo in the presentations. Panagiotis: So your first round is with angel investors. Tell us a little bit about the first ones… Konstantinos: Our first round was with Ireon, which is a VC. Hector Kimonides was really the first person to believe in us. After that, there was the ETF in London, with Rob Genieser, who is now a key figure in the Greek ecosystem, but at that time, he wasn’t; we brought him to Greece. Panagiotis: You are the first, Rob's first investment and the way in which Rob who is also very involved in Endeavor and he's a fantastic investor, it’s because of DeepSea and the exit that you did, and we'll go into that as well…We see this at Endeavor as well; we're working hard to bring foreign investors into Greek startups, and it's a great way for them to get involved. Konstantinos: So, ETF stands for Environmental Technology Fund, and they invest in carbon reduction. They were the first to look at what we were doing and said, “You guys aren’t just saving money; you’re saving carbon dioxide, and that’s gold.” At the time, because our customers were mainly Greek shipowners, some of us didn’t fully grasp this, but he had the vision that this was going to become huge. Indeed, after their investment, in the following years, they started to see significant developments. Shipping was initially an exception in terms of ESG (Environmental, Social, and Governance) considerations. In the years that followed, after ‘20 when Rob got involved there was a great deal of pressure on shipping. First, banks introduced the Poseidon Principles, which required shipping companies to meet certain targets to secure loans. Then, the European Union announced that it would tax emissions similarly to other industries. Additionally, the International Maritime Organization (IMO) established the CII (Carbon Intensity Indicator), which is essentially a metric… Roberto: To grade ships, essentially the same way we have ABCD for all devices and homes, this is now also true for ships. Konstantinos: So now every ship has to measure this indicator, which tracks the amount of carbon dioxide emissions per mile traveled and per ton of capacity. If a ship falls below certain thresholds, it can become almost useless because many ports will refuse entry. These thresholds become stricter each year, prompting the entire market to seek ways to save fuel. Panagiotis: You’ve raised this round of funding, and now European funds are part of your cap table and among your shareholders. I think this marks the beginning of an upward trajectory. Can you share some key milestones that were crucial to your journey? What are some significant collaborations or successes that stand out? Some great collaborations, some great successes. Konstantinos: The first thing we did when Rob came in is, we started to think more internationally, so first we hired a sales manager from the Netherlands, who put us in the process of implementing a professional sales system with salespeople who make sales, not us. We created a strategy together. Meanwhile, Cargill decided to try and develop the technology on their own and moved away from us. So, we focused entirely on this new product that was no longer being used by anyone—well, one Greek company, Seanergy, which had been a supporter from early on. We were trying to sell it to WallWilh, running out of money, but managed to close a deal for 110 ships. This was a turning point for us. We came out with this client, issued press releases where the client publicly stated that using DeepSea reduced their fuel costs by 7%. This endorsement was a significant boost, as it showed the tangible benefits of our technology. After this, we started receiving inbound leads from around the world and expanded into new markets like Singapore and Germany. Panagiotis: Sounds like a very stressful period though. What did you notice about the company and yourselves? Do you have any key learnings or lessons you've taken from that time? Roberto: In general, the lessons you need to learn as your company progresses are of a completely different nature. For example, raising your first round of funding teaches you how to create presentations, pitch to investors, and make your company—or the entire story of your company—attractive to potential investors. This is a crucial and challenging step. We went from not having raised any money to securing 500,000 in September 2019 and 3 million in March 2020. So, within six months, we went from not even understanding what an investor was to completing two funding rounds. The next challenge was how to manage hiring because we grew from 10 people to 40 in just a year and a half. This was extremely difficult, especially in terms of maintaining our company culture and structures. On top of that, we had COVID, which meant everything was remote. For me, being an entrepreneur means that no matter what problem you face, there's always another problem following it. You have to be prepared and able to solve issues as they arise. Panagiotis: To cope with it. Roberto: Yes, to be calm and cope because the problem always changes. Each milestone was a challenge in itself. Konstantinos: We have always had a very strong conviction that what we're doing is the right way to do this thing. So we never stopped, i mean now looking back, we took quite a few big risks, we both worked for free for a very long time, yes, though we had customers who wanted one product we were building another one, we did completely crazy things but it was this big risk that then brought the great benefit and I think this happened because we both had confidence that what we are doing is right, we'd rather fail doing it like this than go and do something else. Panagiotis: Was that stressful, was it very difficult? Roberto: Very stressful and that's the good thing about having 2 co-founders, because when faced with any difficulty we would be with Konstantinos straight away on the phone or we would go out and through the conversation, we would relieve the pressure together and we would cope with it much more easily. Konstantinos: No one else has ever done what we did with Wilhelmsen, i.e., having a client come out and publish a study showing that they used this AI product and were able to quantify their savings before and after. Panagiotis: That’s a great vote of confidence, and I imagine during that challenging period, it provided some relief for both you and your team. Konstantinos: I know a lot of founders in other countries who have faced similar challenges. One of the biggest problems is that once such a challenge arises people leave, but that didn’t happen to us. We have set up a team which has supported us at every level, who stayed with us when we were facing challenges and I think they did this because they knew that we too would support them afterwards, which we did, when we closed the deal with Wilhelmsen, we distributed the first year's earnings as bonuses, which they truly deserved. Roberto: What I want to add about the people is that Konstantinos and I made a conscious decision to focus not just on a candidate's CV but more on their potential and their mindset towards learning. In a startup, roles evolve so rapidly that if you hire someone based on current needs, they might not fit their role in six months to a year. For instance, Panagiota Tziova, who started as a product owner, is now our VP of Product. Similarly, Simos Hajigeorgiou, our first hire, and Antonis Nikitakis, our initial senior researcher, have grown into their roles as VP of Research. We provided them with the opportunity to develop and create, which I believe is crucial. Panagiotis: If we promote the podcast externally, what foreign companies need to understand is that opportunities exist here on which they don’t need to spend hundreds of millions to develop technologies and it's something which is a message to the rest of the global ecosystem. The second thing I retain is that hires, the first hires made at a startup, play a very important role. Wrong early hires can be deadly the same way a lot of money can also be deadly. Konstantinos: Layoffs are also a crucial aspect. If you ask anyone who has been on the founder's journey what the biggest lesson they've learned is, they would likely say, "fire fast." It's very important because someone who is not suited for a specific role at a particular time can create issues for the entire team and ultimately cause problems for themselves as well. They might thrive in a different environment. And that's something that you need to learn, you have to learn not to be soft in such a way that in the end it harms you. Roberto: No, because if you view it from the perspective that the person is simply in an environment that doesn’t suit them, then there's no real guilt. You're actually helping them find a better fit, which ultimately makes them happier. Panagiotis: When does Nabtesco come onto your radar? I know that before the exit took place there was also an investment. Can you tell us about this relationship, how it was established, and how it evolved? Konstantinos: So, we went to Zurich for the European Venture Fair, where Rob was already present, and we were looking for our next VC. We came across Emerald Ventures, a Swiss company that specializes, though not exclusively, in carbonization technologies. Anyway we negotiate with them, we thought that they would invest and at the very last moment they tell us, you know, we will invest in you through a fund which we manage on behalf of a company called Nabtesco. They also mentioned that Hiroshi Nerima would be joining our board as an observer, but reassured us it wouldn't be a problem. That’s how Nabtesco came into the picture. Panagiotis: I hear that this deal with Nabtesco—does it have any application in airplanes? Because wouldn’t the same need exist there? The solution that has been created for optimization and... Konstantinos: In addition to continuing in shipping and with the new initiatives we're pursuing with Nabtesco, we are also becoming an AI center of excellence within Nabtesco. This will help us bring this technology to other markets where Nabtesco is active, including airplanes, although we won’t start there. We’ve seen the initial projects, but we might get there eventually. Panagiotis: We often see technologies in Greece where a large platform or company acquires them. Some might say it’s a bit early, and some are due to the ecosystem and its maturity, but eventually, a large company buys the technology and integrates it into their platform, causing the company to grow significantly. There's a common story where the growth within the platform and the international company is so substantial that founders stay on, continue, and excel within the company. A classic example, whom we've interviewed and is closely associated with Endeavor, is Aimilios Chalamandaris. Samsung, for instance, now builds text-to-speech technology, and he has been recognized as Samsung's best scientist—remarkable achievements. After the exit, can you share some metrics that reflect growth, such as the number of people and what you're working on? Konstantinos: From the exit until the anniversary of the exit, which will be in a month or two, we have approximately doubled the revenue year over year. Panagiotis: That's fantastic. Konstantinos: Our team has grown from about 80 to 100 people. Panagiotis: 99. Konstantinos: Sorry, 99, and we have more hires coming up, so overall, we’re experiencing growth at all levels. In the post-exit phase, we’ve managed to secure anchor clients in major markets. We have clients in containers, tankers, bulk carriers, and Ro-Ro vessels. We have a strong presence in Greece, Northern Europe, and also a solid position in Singapore and Japan. So initially, we focus on growth. Now that we’ve moved beyond the early adopter stage, our product is desirable and we don't need to prove it from scratch each time, as people can easily find information about us online. Together with Nabtesco, we're advancing towards our major vision: the autonomous ship. We received approval a month ago for our first product that we’re selling together, which allows a ship to be autonomous on the open seas. This is a retrofit that can be installed in 2 days on any ship, converting it into a vessel where all speed adjustments are automatically managed by a computer. By 2026, and we’ve already started work on it, we aim to achieve full autonomy. Panagiotis: Most importantly, usually after such acquisitions these companies, at least this is what we see for the most part, in the majority of these investments. These companies make a decision to keep development and research and technology centers here and what do you end up with. You end up with world class research and development in the country because of this exit, which in shipping is the first, in maritime tech which we call the technology sector in shipping this is the first big exit in technology and it's I think very enthusiastic. Of course, MarineTraffic also followed, so it's no longer the only one, but you were the first. Roberto: It’s crucial because the knowledge developed in startups eventually permeates the entire ecosystem. One of the challenges we faced when we started was finding people with the experience to help us scale a company in Greece. There were no experts who had scaled a company in Greece. In contrast, in America—especially in San Francisco—there are many companies with experience in scaling unicorns to a billion-dollar valuation. They know exactly how to do it and who to hire, moving talent from big companies like LinkedIn to Facebook. Konstantinos: On the other hand, shipping talent in Greece is very important to us. One of the reasons why the company that was created in New York decided to do the same thing, I believe is because they don't have that proximity to their customer to understand what the customer really needs and in Greece everyone has some contact with the sea. For instance, our Lead for supporting ship captains is a captain with years of experience at sea and also a computer engineer. This person is crucial for communicating our work to customers and helping us develop the product. You wouldn't find someone like him in San Francisco—he doesn’t exist there, but I’m sure there are others like him in Greece. Panagiotis: I think it's the only industry, the only space where Greece should be the Silicon Valley of maritime tech. Konstantinos: But really, if we don't manage here to be the hub... Panagiotis: And you should be very proud because you've made an extraordinary contribution -towards that end. Konstantinos: I believe it will happen. Panagiotis: A fun way to clear the mind—a game we’ve put together with our fantastic producers from REACH. Each of you picks a card. It has a word on it, and I'd love to hear the definition you come up with. Roberto: Okay, I have picked "strategy." To me, strategy means being able to observe all the stimuli surrounding a company and all the factors influencing each decision. It’s like a game of chess—being able to foresee, at least in the near future, how the market might move. Understanding these moving elements and using that insight to make the best decisions, that’s what I consider strategy. Konstantinos: Nice, scalability, the ability to scale. Panagiotis: Exactly. Konstantinos: It’s about being able to take what I’m doing now on a ship and scale it up to 100, then to 1.000, and eventually to 10.000. Similarly, it’s about being able to scale from working with 5 people to 100, and then to 1.000. That’s the most important and challenging thing. Panagiotis: We have the privilege and blessing of being number one in the world in one sector of the economy: shipping. At the same time, we’re fortunate to be living in a period where, considering Greece's turnaround and other factors, we’re experiencing a flourishing phase despite the broader economic challenges and issues in the technology sector. Things are moving in a positive direction. Could you share your perspective on Greece's role? How do you view the current ecosystem and the emerging opportunities? Specifically in shipping, what strategic goals should we, as a country, set? Roberto: Greeks have tremendous potential, but since we lack notable success stories in the startup community, it's challenging to envision our own successes. Unlike in America, where many of the major successes have occurred, it's harder for us to imagine achieving similar feats, that's I think for me one very important part and the other, in terms of shipping, we have a significant advantage with Greece holding 20% of the global shipping industry. Each technological revolution brings new opportunities. Currently, there are many opportunities in areas like artificial intelligence and energy transition, particularly with alternative fuels. I hope that Greeks will be the ones to find solutions to these emerging challenges. Konstantinos: Shipping will undergo a complete transformation in the next 30 years. First and foremost, we need to find alternative methods for ships to operate, as they can't rely on traditional fuels. With the goal of becoming net zero by 2050, there will be a significant shift in how we handle fuels, but the exact solution for this transition is still unresolved. Moreover, we anticipate a major revolution in autonomy, where ships will operate autonomously, optimizing their functions with the help of artificial intelligence and other advanced technologies. What has not been done yet is the great revolution that needs to occur in general digitization. Panagiotis: So can we become the Silicon Valley of maritime tech. Konstantinos: Yes, we can. Panagiotis: What are the key things that need to occur. Is it the owners? Roberto: Okay, several owners, like in us, Greek shipowners have invested in them. It's just that this needs to be done on a much larger scale and to get closer to the VCs for companies to be able to very quickly build a product together with shipping companies. Konstantinos: I’m not concerned about the financial aspect because, although overall there is less money in Greece, there is actually more available here for a shipping startup. This is because there are shipowners who understand the shipping industry, whereas a VC in America might not. Additionally, I've seen foreign marine tech companies coming to raise funds in Greece, so financing is available and growing. We also have the talent, and once the visa issues are resolved, allowing us to bring people from abroad, it will become even more significant. What I would like to see more progress on is the customer side, particularly at scale. For instance, there should be incentives for Greek shipping companies to adopt experimental or new products from local startups. Panagiotis: More pilots and for them in other words to buy more. Konstantinos: Oftentimes, we see that a shipowner who is very generous in investing in a shipping company will not necessarily purchase the product from a marine tech company because there might be someone in their company who blocks it. Panagiotis: Yes, I can imagine many things that don’t work, but I want to highlight one opportunity that seems promising and where we can all work on it together. Technologies from abroad that are emerging and being developed could come to Greece. Instead of just raising funds, which is also fantastic because, ultimately, we want an industry that is close to technology, innovative, and forward-looking, we should also focus on providing incentives. We should work together to ensure these companies stay here or build teams here to enhance talent density and the overall visibility of maritime tech. Konstantinos: We are entering a great debate of the general attractiveness of Greece as a destination for tax purposes, in terms of the graffiti on all the buildings, in terms of the judicial system, etc. Panagiotis: Mostly the structures are... I will tell you that my belief is that structures follow the needs. For example, if people come here and start forming a community of foreigners and individuals who push for the structures to develop because they need them, then the structures grow much faster. If you wait to build the structures first to become attractive or to say "come to Greece," it might be a little too late. Panagiotis: Roberto, book or podcast? Roberto: Book. Panagiotis: Konstantinos? Konstantinos: Podcast. Panagiotis: Roberto, morning person or night owl? Roberto: Night owl. Panagiotis: And you, Konstantinos? Konstantinos: Me too. Panagiotis: A night owl, both of you are night owls. Coffee or tea, Roberto? Roberto: Coffee. Panagiotis: Coffee or tea? Konstantinos: Coffee. Panagiotis: If a single person says tea, I will cut the episode. Roberto, if you could have dinner with a historical figure, any one you wanted… Roberto: Steve Jobs. Panagiotis: How about you, Konstantinos? Konstantinos: Aristotle. Panagiotis: What technology can't you live without? Roberto: I'll say my mobile. Panagiotis: How about you, Konstantinos? Konstantinos: Mobile. Panagiotis: What is your favorite city for business travel Roberto? Roberto: Singapore. Panagiotis: Konstantinos? Konstantinos: Singapore. Panagiotis: Konstantinos, tell me a book that has changed your life or which has left a great impression on you. Konstantinos:I could truly say the Outliers, it is true. Panagiotis: The podcast? Konstantinos: You said a book. I read it when it came out and it was quite a while ago. I was young then and I read it all in one go and it was extremely interesting and it put me in a state of thinking about the world and relationships... Panagiotis: Roberto, a book? Roberto: Most pivotal book I've read is Blitzscaling -in relation to these things. Panagiotis: Reid Hoffman. Board member at Endeavor and we have it here from him, he's sent it to us, fantastic. Have you ever received a piece of advice that has resonated with you? Roberto: I was in England recently, went fishing, and spent a lot of time with the rod—about 3-4 hours. I was trying to catch some fish with my friends, but none of us had managed to hook anything. Then an old man passed by, and I asked him, "Did you catch anything?" He said, "Yes, I caught 2-3 fish." So I asked him, "What advice do you have for me?" And he said to me, "Just enjoy it." I really liked that advice because it applies to everything. Sometimes, we focus so much on reaching a goal that we miss the beauty of the process itself. Konstantinos: All jobs are the same. It might sound strange, let me explain. Basically what it means is that the skills especially of a manager are general skills and once you've learned how to analyze a problem, how to solve a technical problem and especially how to handle people, you can apply these things to many different sectors. Panagiotis: If you hadn’t created DeepSea, if you were now not involved with DeepSea, what would you be doing? I have a feeling I know your answer Roberto but, Konstantinos? Konstantinos: I think I would be doing some other startup applying artificial intelligence to another industry, probably much less successfully. Roberto: If I were doing something else, it would definitely be something creative. One important thing, especially when reaching the end of a cycle, is that how you perceive yourself needs to become a bit more abstract. If you define your whole identity by being, say, a founder in maritime tech, and then that changes, you might wonder who you are. What I've realized about myself is that I'm very creative and I enjoy creating things that people use, whether it's a product or a work of art that people see or hear. So, I'd definitely pursue something very creative. Panagiotis: The common question always on all podcasts, for 5 seasons now, what do you think makes an entrepreneur an “Outlier”? What makes him stand out? Roberto: To be a true outlier, you need to find yourself in certain external circumstances that allow you to be significantly better than others—like being in the right place at the right time. However, this isn’t always motivating for someone who’s currently unsure about their own outlier status. I believe that the key traits for success in anything are perseverance and patience. Even though it’s gratifying to talk about success now, Konstantinos and I have faced numerous challenges and moments of doubt, questioning if our efforts would pay off. The difficulties and challenges are integral to the process, and overcoming them is essential for managing a larger team, company, and revenue without faltering. Panagiotis: Konstantinos, Roberto, fantastic discussion, thank you very much, good luck and we are by your side! Thank you for joining us on yet another episode of Outliers. The Outliers podcast is an initiative of Endeavor Greece. 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