Konstantina Psoma, Kaedim: The startup that is revolutionizing 3D design with AI

Panagiotis: Hello, Konstantina.

Konstantina: Hello, Panagiotis.

Panagiotis: Thank you for being with us.

Konstantina: Thank you for the invitation.

Panagiotis: Your story is very interesting and you're also in Greece these days, so we thought we'd seize the opportunity to do the interview because you don't live here. You're based in San Francisco. That's where you started your company, Kaedim. We want you to tell us everything. Give us a bit of context. What does Kaedim do?

Konstantina: Okay, yes, of course. So, thank you very much for the invitation. In short, Kaedim is an AI startup. This means we build artificial intelligence algorithms that take images as input. They can even be art images, and they convert them into three-dimensional digital objects.

Panagiotis: Okay.

Konstantina: Now, let me very quickly explain what these three-dimensional digital objects are. Sounds weird. Basically, if you’ve ever played video games...

Panagiotis: A lot, perhaps more than I should.

Konstantina: Perfect. So, basically, all those items you see in a video game—the character, the weapon they're holding, the tree, anything at all—each one is a three-dimensional digital object, which essentially allows you to move within a three-dimensional space. So, we basically do this conversion from 2D to 3D art.

Panagiotis: Sounds like a very large market. It sounds like there must be a huge demand for this. Many developers, many games.

Konstantina: Right now, we're sitting in this armchair. Imagine that these armchairs were designed by someone. Where did they design them? On the computer, in 3D modeling software. So, besides games, you also include all the other industries, from architecture to product design to e-commerce, which we can talk about later.

Panagiotis: We're entering virtual reality now, and I imagine that all these Oculus devices, all these headsets, use 3D imaging.

Konstantina: Of course. Basically, these make 3D even more accessible. But of course, for any developer to be able to incorporate, let's say, three-dimensional games or experiences into these, they first have to create the three-dimensional digital objects to fill an activity or a game with them. So, that's the pain point we've been focused on for many years.

Panagiotis: You definitely have to tell us a lot, because you've already had many successes—fantastic clients, fantastic supporters, investors. It's not just an idea. It's a problem that you solve better than anyone else. Let's start a bit from your childhood. Where were you born, where did you grow up? Let's get to know Konstantina a bit before Kaedim.

Konstantina: Yes. So, basically, I was born and raised here in Athens, in Petralona specifically. Very humble beginnings. I went to school at Ionidio, which became a model school while I was there. We had very good teachers. And I was always very interested in anything to do with sports. And summer camps. 

Panagiotis: Any specific sport or overall? 

Konstantina: I’d say overall, but okay, now I do have favorite sports. But back then, when I was little, basically my parents took us to lots of activities outside of school, mainly sports. And I really fell in love, let’s say, with that setting.

Panagiotis: Parents, entrepreneurs.

Konstantina: Yes, my dad started a business 30 years ago and did his PhD in AI. By chance. Crazy stuff for 30 years ago.

Panagiotis: Okay, you have a dad with a PhD in AI.

Konstantina: Yes.

Panagiotis: Everyone else is struggling to teach them how to use the Facebook app.

Konstantina: Yes.

Panagiotis: Okay.

Konstantina: And, well, yes, he had started a company. But I, let me tell you this as well, even as an adult I hadn’t understood what it meant that my father had a company. It was a bit... It took me a long time to understand it. I could see the effort. And at the same time, my mother stayed at home and raised us with various activities. She has a love for the arts. Which I will also later connect somehow to what I do. 

Panagiotis: It’s definitely connected. 

Konstantina: So that was the environment. 

Panagiotis: What kind of business does your dad have? 

Konstantina: Well, my dad has a business, which is basically CRM, Customer Relationship Management, and most of his clients were in the banking sector. 

Panagiotis: Okay, so banks. So, B2B.

Konstantina:  B2B, so SaaS.

Panagiotis: You had emails at 12 and 1 in the morning.

Konstantina: Of course. And trips.

Panagiotis: And trips. You too. So, you're following in your parents' footsteps, right? What were your school years like? Did you go straight from school to study abroad or did you also study in Greece? 

Konstantina: Well, basically what happened is that, first of all, during my school years I always loved math and physics. At our school, we were also very lucky; we had incredible math teachers. They gave us extra lessons too. For example, they would come to school two hours earlier. Shoutout to Mr. Mistikadourakis at Ionidio who did this.

Panagiotis: We absolutely have to find this person.

Konstantina: Yes, amazing. So, they invested a lot in this thing. And my graduation from high school, meaning my Panhellenic exams, coincided with "Grexit." I don't know if you remember.

Panagiotis: Very well.

Konstantina: Very well.

Panagiotis: Extremely well.

Konstantina: Which had generally terrified my family. And imagine, my father is an entrepreneur. We were at a stage where, okay, how are we going to leave to save ourselves? So, I took the national exams and got into Applied Mathematics and Physics, which I wanted, at the Polytechnic. 

But at the same time, we had also started applying to universities abroad. And okay, there we mostly applied for Computer Science. But specifically, I chose the course at the university I picked because it had a twist. My degree abroad was Computer Science and Innovation.

Panagiotis: Yes.

Konstantina: And for some reason, I didn't want just Computer Science. So that was what sold me.

Panagiotis: It gives you the opportunity, while at university, to start this company. So, I think it's nice to hear some of your thoughts about the educational system as well. I mean, you're in Greece, in a public school, where the teachers have managed to influence you. And then you go to a university where the program itself gives you the opportunity to create the company. How do you capture your experience in the educational system? 

Konstantina: I think it's a combination of two things. And to be lucky enough to meet those people on your path who will really go above and beyond to help you. But also, to come from a family environment that pushes you. That is, it will push you to try even harder. 

And let me tell you something else. My parents, for example, my father would always say to me every summer, 'Okay, now we're going to cover all the material for next year.' So, of course, I was like, what are you talking about, there's no way, I'm going to relax during summer. But imagine that we had this constant push, like, we had to be ahead.

Panagiotis: How important it is for parents to be engaged in education.

Konstantina: It's a topic that I've really been enjoying lately. Basically, it's about how effort and not being happy every moment... Because when my parents made me sit down and said, no, now we're going to do next summer's material and all the other kids were carefree, I wasn't happy, I was miserable.

Panagiotis: Yes, of course. And arguments, tears, shouting.

Konstantina: But honestly, what this taught me is that in life it’s neither nice nor fulfilling at the end of the day to spend all your time doing something that only makes you happy.

Panagiotis: Exactly. And relaxed. You break a lot of stereotypes at once, which we’re going to challenge today in this discussion. Tell us a bit about Bristol. So, you study there and that’s where you start the company. Put us a little into that storyline.

Konstantina: Okay, yes. So, when I went to Bristol, basically, I spent about two months adjusting, and the English language was driving me crazy. 8 hours of lectures, I had a headache for two months from, okay, you now need to start thinking in English. But very soon into the four-year period there, I started to really like it; I had a stronger connection with anything visual. It was visual, meaning you could see the result of the code. Standout courses were things like computer graphics, we did computer vision and other things, but computer graphics was definitely my highlight. We built rasterizers, we built ray tracers that basically render different images. Basically, you build your own renderer with code. 

The university had an entire year dedicated for computer scientists to build a game. Students who specifically went to Bristol, many did so because of this, because Bristol had the computer science game project. And because of this, because there was this big project, there were also many other courses that were complementary. For example, 3D modeling. And as another example, 3D animation. So, I took those. I took those courses because I found 3D modeling really interesting. I was like, cool, art, artistry, technology, how hard can it be? So, I got into a pickle there, and that's where the story of Kaedim begins.

Panagiotis: You even combine mom's art with mathematics and physics.

Konstantina: And back then, the art part from my mom wasn't very strong. I mean, it wasn't like she'd studied to be an artist. Now, meanwhile, fast forward, at this moment she's studying Fine Arts in Ioannina.

Panagiotis: Wow.

Konstantina: Yes.

Panagiotis: Perfect. Full lifelong learning. She is a full lifelong learner.

Konstantina: Yes.

Panagiotis: Fantastic.

Konstantina: But at that time, I hadn't connected at all, let's say, that my artistic spirit came from my mother. I understood that later.

Panagiotis: You mean, did she just buy art?

Konstantina: No, she did a lot of things on her own. When we were kids, she made a lot of crafts for us.

Panagiotis: Okay.

Konstantina: She was a teacher at a preschool and every night she would prepare countless crafts for the children. We would see her cutting things, sewing, making things. Imagine, she even made her own puzzles. So, instead of buying a puzzle, she would paint a huge picture, then cut it into pieces, laminate them, do all those crafts, and take them the next day to the children at the preschool. So, I would see her basically creating her own art for the kids.

Panagiotis: And I see here two parents who have truly shaped you. So, Bristol, innovation and science, you took 3D modeling, you became fascinated by that field, and you’re about to make the game.

Konstantina: I didn’t make the game, imagine, I only did the art parts, but I escaped the game because we had the double degree, computer science and innovation. I escaped from that.

Panagiotis: So, you go into innovation.

Konstantina: First of all, I had no idea there that video games are made with three-dimensional models. Imagine I was at a university with 200 other students. The majority were men and gamers. Because all the gamers study computer science. So, imagine I spent afternoons with my friends from computer science. Everyone gathered around a screen and we were all basically playing video games. 

But when I saw that, I had never thought, wow, all these games are made like that, or that these are three-dimensional models. I had never thought about it. So, I was in that position. 

Then, when I took that 3D modeling course where they told us to choose a building at the university or in the city of Bristol and model it in the software, that's when I started to understand what's going on. Because when I tried to open the software, the computer crashed. The computer didn't even work, just imagine. I mean, we're talking about really heavy software. So, then I thought, okay, let's start with a chair that will go inside the temple. The chair took me two days. Now, just a chair. So, I start to see how huge a mountain it is. That task I took on.

Panagiotis: Yes, yes.

Konstantina: My professor had told me, are you sure you'll take on the cathedral? Yes, yes, how hard can it be? Are you sure? Yes, yes, I'm sure. And I took it. Anyway, so I end up in a huge struggle for two months where I realize this is a really hard-earned skill. YouTube tutorials from one, from another software, trying to figure out what's going on with a thousand buttons. 

And let me add this: our listeners may not know what 3D modeling looks like, but to describe it to you, imagine you have a sculptor in front of you with a block of marble, and he starts using his tools to slowly carve the marble until he basically forms the shape he wants. He starts shaping the form from a cube. Well, imagine trying to do exactly that through a screen, through software, except its interface is two-dimensional. You can't just walk around the cube yourself.

Panagiotis: Yes, of course. And turning it yourself. Even more difficult.

Konstantina: So, I truly believe that it’s even harder than being a sculptor.

Panagiotis: Okay. And these, one by one, piece by piece, line by line. This still happens today.

Konstantina: This still happens today. So, that’s when I start to realize, oh my God, how difficult this is. And then something just didn’t make sense to me. Because I was in a phase like, ok, every video game needs thousands of these. If each one of these takes, even the simplest one, takes, I don't know, one day, two days, we're talking about huge costs. 

This, I later learned, I started to do research, is due to how difficult it is to create the 3D art that will be used in video games afterwards. Right now, it's so hard for a developer who wants to make something in 3D to get all the resources needed to create it, it's so expensive. So, there are far fewer 3D experiences. And I truly believe that the future of digital is 3D.

Panagiotis: Of course it is.

Konstantina: So, this bottleneck needs to be solved.

Panagiotis: We need to democratize.

Konstantina: Exactly. This bottleneck needs to be democratized.

Panagiotis: And also modernize this design.

Konstantina: And that's where Kaedim came in. So, exactly with that vision of democratizing and making it accessible. I'm entering my final year of studies, 2019-2020. And that's where we are given the opportunity by the university's innovation department who tell us, well, you have two options for your thesis, for your graduation project. So, either you do a research project or you do a fake startup. Give me anything other than research. I'm that kind of person.

Panagiotis: And what a great idea for Greek universities, I'm thinking now.

Konstantina: And what a great idea for Greek universities. Which is, okay, the Greek universities are very much focused on research.

Panagiotis: Yes.

Konstantina: And after a few months, in February 2020, we were at a point where we said, so, we're actually doing it. We went to the website of the English Companies House, as it’s called in England. We paid 12 pounds and registered the company.

Panagiotis: With your fellow students, I assume, who you were together with in...

Konstantina: Yes, there were two of us in this project who took it on together, me and one other person. And together we registered this company there.

Panagiotis: Does the university have any...?

Konstantina: Equity?

Panagiotis: Equity in this. Was this something they had planned? Because I imagine...

Konstantina: They had; they had planned it. Another amazing thing. Because we were under the innovation umbrella, they didn't take any equity. So, we enter the competition, we win first prize, which was 10,000. So, 10,000. On May 2020, it was the largest amount I had ever seen in my life. I mean, I see it in a bank account to which I have access.

Panagiotis: Of course.

Konstantina: And, I'm like, 10,000. Two years. We can live for two years.

Panagiotis: Yes.

Konstantina: Yes. Okay. And then COVID hit, I went back to Greece where I actually was living for two years. I started to understand... With 10,000 you can't hire someone. Okay, of course. 

And so, we start to raise our first, let's say, ever round, which was 150,000 and we found a super angel who did this round. And we were really lucky to meet him, he’s the co-founder and CTO of Rebellion Games, who also make Sniper Elite.

Panagiotis: Yes. How did you meet him? Was it at some...? I mean, I think for aspiring founders, the first, the very first angel investor is often pivotal because it’s not just about the money.

Konstantina: Yes, yes.

Panagiotis: And usually, for someone to be or become an angel investor, they really have to believe in you or in the problem you’re trying to solve. Usually, it’s both. So, how you find an angel investor is definitely a very good piece of advice for new founders.

Konstantina: With a lot of effort, to be honest. I mean, just imagine that at this stage I might have been sending messages on LinkedIn to anyone who had the title investor, angel, founder at a gaming company, I did a lot of outbound. And then we can talk about other things as well. 

Honestly, I think founders today really underestimate outbound. And what does outbound mean? It means starting to send messages and trying, cold, to find people to talk to about any goal. And why do I think they underestimate it? Outbound is really hard. Okay?

Panagiotis: The success rate is 0.01%.

Konstantina: And it involves groundwork too. That is, you have to sit down, like we said, roll up your sleeves, sit down, and go through each profile one by one. For example, I would sit for 10 hours, 12, even 16 hours to send messages to 100 people. But when you do this, someone will reply to you. One person will reply to you. The second one will reply to you. 

So, that's how I met a lot of people at first, but specifically I met Chris through another connection. That is, a connection happened there. At that stage, I truly didn’t let anything slip by. Any opportunity. Whatever small program I found that would connect me with advisors, anything, I grabbed it and talked to as many people as I possibly could.

Panagiotis: Perfect. You get that money, £150,000? So, tell us a bit about the next steps. Meanwhile, since then up to now, there have been additional rounds. You have also raised very significant funds. Okay, the problem is clear, but you need to develop technology that is groundbreaking. It has to be a technology that doesn't exist out there. So, what are the steps you follow there? 

Konstantina: Well, at that moment basically two parallel streams begin, one is 'let's build a team' and the other is 'let's build a business.' Okay, building the team, building the business. In the team part, I really failed spectacularly. There’s no other way to describe it and I can’t explain it to you. 

As for the business part, I managed to do something over there, we did something. So, I’ll start with the business. In business, at that stage we received our first funds and we were like, okay, we need to figure out what we're actually going to build. And we took the state-of-the-art research in our field and put it into a product. That's the simplest way to describe it. I had talked to a lot, to quite a few companies. Back then we signed 10 or 11 letters of intent, basically stating that they were interested in doing a pilot program to see if this would move forward. So, we had 11 pilot programs in 2021, meaning just after I returned to London. The result from the pilot programs, simply put, was that this thing could not be used.

Panagiotis: Okay, tough.

Konstantina: Really tough. So, let me tell you how we got out of that situation.

Panagiotis: Yes, really, how does someone do it, how do you keep going? Especially when, as you say, you fail in the second line—in the team as well. So maybe you know what, you know the difficulty and the... It's two slaps at the same time.

Konstantina: Two slaps at the same time. And this, what you just said, two slaps at the same time, is the definition of entrepreneurship. And not just two, but ten. So nice, that's where they hit you. You get hit at all times and in all ways. Anyway. 

So, at that point I didn't know what to do. And I remember, I had taken a trip to Bristol, back then, because I was living in London and I met my friend Kostas Karahalios. He is also an entrepreneur; he also studied in Bristol. And anyway, we had connected because I was trying to talk to any founder, let's say, and I was discussing this problem with him. And somehow, he threw an idea at me, I don’t remember exactly how he said it, but he mentioned 'human in the loop.' So, at that point, I had two options. Either I would become a research institution, because what our clients basically told us, or rather they weren’t even clients yet, they told us that state-of-the-art research can’t be used by industry. So, it's not good enough. 

So, either you try to make some advancement in the state of the art, meaning you create the next state-of-the-art research yourself and become, I don't know, DeepMind, in the best case, you become a research institution, or you find some other solution, and commercialize something that's really not good enough for industry.

Panagiotis: The product you have developed right now is not enough to scale and solve a problem, or you go and do deeper research and become a research organization, or you have to find a way to commercialize it.

Konstantina: Yes, and scaling isn't the problem. The problem there was usefulness. That really, the outputs of this research weren't... The industry didn't find them valuable at all. Me, like I told you before, me and research don't go together. I don't have that kind of patience for research. I was in the mindset that we need to make money. Tomorrow, tomorrow I want us to make money. So, I also made that trip to Bristol, and Kostas Karahalios threw me this idea, and I said we'll start hiring 3D artists. And what was the idea? It was okay, let's bring into the company the people who are also our clients.

Panagiotis: The clients.

Konstantina: So, those who basically need to find the product useful. To explain to us why it isn’t useful. I had an idea, of course, since I was also doing 3D modeling, I had some idea why it isn’t useful, but I hadn’t understood it very deeply. And also, to use these people to do our quality control. That is, to have a human in the loop, as they call it today, which is super trendy. 

Basically, we combined AI, artificial intelligence, with what we call artist in the loop, since it’s an artist in the loop, who assesses the result from the automated algorithm and optimizes it. So that what we deliver back to the client is truly something of value.

Panagiotis: And unique.

Konstantina: And unique, of course, and now this has given us a crazy advantage, because the results are licensable, since a lot of companies now have major issues with 100% AI outputs.

Panagiotis: Yes, maybe they don't have the rights.

Konstantina: Right. We can offer exclusive IP rights because we have the artist in the loop, and it's also our own property.

Panagiotis: Yes.

Konstantina: Property. And creativity. And that's how I was able to land my first two clients. I still remember the day I went to a gaming conference in London and I had the input and output on my phone—the image and the 3D model—and I was telling them: this will become that. And that's how we landed our first two clients.

Panagiotis: What are the milestones from those first steps up to the last round, let's say, which was from Andreessen Horowitz?

Konstantina: Yes.

Panagiotis: And I want you to tell us, to take us up to that point, and then we’ll talk about that round, which I think was an impressive one, that really changed everything and turned the page for the whole company. Tell us a bit about it.

Konstantina: So, from where we were, autumn 2021, after we went through those difficulties, it was about what we would build so that the market could actually buy it, basically, so that it would have value. 

As soon as we closed our first two clients, I was like, okay, double down, we found the profile that wants to buy this thing and is willing to pay us. Let's try to turn it into a process. And that's when outbound sales began. Second mention of outbound. The first was for investors in the initial round, now it’s outbound for sales. 

So, we started really aggressively, sending messages to small and medium-sized companies. And what was the strategy there? It was to build a solid customer base from small and medium-sized clients. Because we couldn’t go after the Riots of the World, the Activisions of the World. Okay, we were nobodies. Alright, so let’s just build a really strong customer base to prove the value add. And from there we'll move on to the bigger ones. 

So, within the next 6-9 months, we managed to have 40-50 studios, game development studios, on board. We also started with our very small team back then in London, and little by little, we began to break even at certain points.

Panagiotis: Very early.

Konstantina: Yes. Very early. And generally, I have this focus. I like the company to be self-sufficient. Of course, we also have the extra capital for expansions, but that gives me even more confidence. At some point we also had a viral moment after 9 months, that’s when they started to adopt it. Some of the 50 clients posted about it. We created a viral moment. And at that point I was thinking, let's raise a seed round. I had already raised two rounds in Europe. At the stage when I said, let's raise a seed round.

Panagiotis: After the angel investment. With the 150,000.

Konstantina: Yes, there I raised another angel round from investors in Europe. The founder of Monzo came in, and of Go Cardless, now he is a partner at YC. And at that stage, I flew to San Francisco. Pioneer Fund joined the round, which usually only invests in YC companies. I'll tell you another story about YC. I can connect it to the team I mentioned at the beginning, the initial failure with the team. 

And there, during that trip to San Francisco, I also spoke with Andreessen Horowitz. Back then, they had already made a standout, because, well, very strong, obviously, one of the top three funds in the world, also very strong in the gaming sector.

Panagiotis: Of course.

Konstantina: The strongest. So, it was like, a very good partner if we were to work with them. And that's where they told us no. They told us too early.

Panagiotis: Too early.

Konstantina: Okay, that's where I stopped the raise, whatever money we had raised with Pioneer and the extra angels. And at that point, I'm like, let's go back to building. I go back to London, we didn't have a team in San Francisco at the time, I go back to London and we went really intensively, 9 months just sales, and we reached 1 million ARR within 6-8 months.

Panagiotis: Revenue, annual revenue of 1 million.

Konstantina: Correct.

Panagiotis: Okay.

Konstantina: Over 1 million.

Panagiotis: Okay.

Konstantina: And during those 8 months, I had made a big wish list of investors and kept them updated every month. So, this progress, this progress. And we were in a phase, I don't know, 8 months in a row, with more than 30% MRR growth.

Panagiotis: Tell us a bit about this Y Combinator story, the YC story.

Konstantina: The YC story. So, basically what happened with YC was that in 2021, just as I was starting and getting a lot of reality checks from trying to build a startup. I had hired the first employees, things weren't moving fast, a general, I don't know how to describe it, slowness, annoying, an irritating slowness in everything that was happening in the company. I was introduced for the first time there, basically, to the largest startup accelerator, which is Y Combinator, based in Silicon Valley and San Francisco, and I started reading a lot of material from there. 

So, there I begin to realize what it means to have a startup, and I begin to realize all the sacrifices that have to go into this system, in order for it to produce outputs. So, I start to step on the gas. I start being like, okay, let's go, we have a lot of work to do here. Not everyone liked that, obviously. And that's when I also start to understand, from a lot of materials and essays written by Paul Graham, the founder of Y Combinator, and by Y Combinator as an organization in general, how specific the initial team needs to be. And how important it is. The first team is unbelievably important. And that's when I realize that I didn't make the first hires with any thoughtfulness. I mean, I wasn't...

Panagiotis: You didn't put extra thought into it.

Konstantina: I didn't put extra thought to consider what are the values here, what are my own values, what are the values we want to have as a company, what do we need to achieve, what qualities do these people need to have. That thought wasn't present at all. And that's basically when I realized that I had made mistakes, and that's when I had to have the guts to fix them. Because those mistakes are very difficult emotionally. A lot of people from the startup ecosystem struggle a lot with these mistakes.

Panagiotis: And they get trapped in...

Konstantina: And they get trapped. I go into this process; I fix all of that. Meaning, I do whatever was necessary so that we are on solid ground in terms of the first team—the first team is built on the same values, and we can talk a bit more later about the culture and what those values are, but the negative elements leave and what remains is a very small team, and that's when I actually realize that you really don't need a large team at this stage. For the stage where I have my first 2, 5, 10, 20 customers and even achieve product-market fit, you don't need a large team. Even when we reached 1 million ARR... 

Panagiotis: How many were you? 

Konstantina: Key contributors, meaning the core team was 2-3 engineers and 3 3D artists. Nothing. Very small. And Y Combinator says this too. It says that before you reach your first market fit, you shouldn't have more than 6-7 people. You can reach it. And especially today, and this was five years ago, especially today with AI, where you also have 3 agents.

Panagiotis: Yes, maybe even fewer.

Konstantina: Maybe even fewer. But the story with Y Combinator, that's where I started, I became very passionate, I was in a phase where I wanted to get into Y Combinator. Well, okay, it's a big dream, let's say. And I start from 2021 and I apply. Every year. Twice a year. There are two batches per year. Winter, summer. First batch, nothing. Out. Second batch, nothing. Third time I'm applying, after 1.5 years, we get an interview. We do the interview, no. Fourth application, nothing, not even an interview. Fifth application, nothing. 

On the sixth application, we've now reached 2024. We go in and do the interview and we're at the point where we've reached 1 million ARR and surpassed it. And it's like, you can't ignore me. Like, you know, I am here. I'm still here. Alright, so we go in and they give us an offer, to get in. At that point, for me, it was the 'I made it' moment, but business-wise it didn’t make sense to take that decision. Because Y Combinator is also expensive, we were at a stage where we were already very far along on the business side. Honestly, I saw value in joining, because I’m a first-time founder and I saw some value there. All of this coincided with the discussions I was having with Andreessen Horowitz, and I chose to go for Series A instead.

Panagiotis: Got it, sounds good. So, you go and you raise this round. Tell us a bit about it. What does this round mean for the company?

Konstantina: For the company, it basically means that we’re being recognized as leaders in the field of AI for 3D, and basically, we’re getting ahead of huge companies that have this need for digital three-dimensional objects. Okay, now with Andreessen Horowitz, we’re talking about world-class support.

Panagiotis: One of the most successful funds in the technology sector worldwide.

Konstantina: They've built incredible support for founders. From the talent department, which sends me, for example, 50 potential new employees every week for me to consider, to putting us in front of the biggest clients we could possibly have. And somehow, actually, we closed one of the top 10 games of all time. And now they're our clients. That's insane value. What does it actually mean? What does this mean? It's an accelerator. And as we say, "Συν Αθηνά και χείρα κίνει". It doesn't mean that just because Andreessen invested in us, we'll automatically be successful or a billion-dollar company. Not at all. 

Panagiotis: How many people are in the team right now? 

Konstantina: At the moment, the whole company is about 80 to 90 people.

Panagiotis: Okay. Quite a few. It grew. It grew bigger.

Konstantina: Because we also have the artist in the loop component, that's now a large team. But now there are also supporting roles. For example, we have a talent team. We have an organizational team, operations. So, it's no longer just pure engineering like it was at the beginning.

Panagiotis: Yes, of course. Of course. And are your clients still mostly game developers? Because we were talking earlier and saying that this technology applies to so many more areas than just gaming. Of course, it's an obvious market segment and an evident solution. But currently, who are your clients and how are you developing that area? 

Konstantina: Yes, look, we currently have three main customer segments. Our biggest one is gaming, and because we've had success with this video game, which is really huge, it multiplies—meaning, the word-of-mouth spreads in that field. Our secondary sector is product design.

Panagiotis: Okay.

Konstantina: I mean, as I said, all these objects we see around us here were really three-dimensional digital objects at first. And also, a crazy thing that I think many people don't think about is that these objects here probably weren't handmade by someone to be here today. It was a factory that made them. The thing is, their digital replica was handmade by someone. So actually, our physical world, the world we live in, is more automated than the digital one. 

Panagiotis: Crazy, right? 

Konstantina: Yes, so the second part is product design and the third part is e-commerce, as we have as clients the largest e-commerce company in America.

Panagiotis: Let's play a game.

Konstantina: Alright.

Panagiotis: Let's build a bridge between what you have achieved so far and the future, which helped us understand the industry a bit, but I really want to hear what your plans are. How will Kaedim grow, how do you see your connection with Greece, but in the meantime, between these two topics, we'll play a bridge. Which is, you will pick a card, randomly, which has a word inside and we’d really like to hear your definition of this word. It’s a business word.

Konstantina: Alright, alright. And you give me, you know, philosophy.

Panagiotis: No, no, no. It will be something that definitely comes out spontaneously. Alright. Leadership.

Konstantina: Leadership. So, for me, leadership is something that has always truly fascinated me. When I was very young, I would go to a summer camp every summer, and that's where I started out as a little kid. Then, I liked that summer camp so much that I became an assistant team leader. And I convinced the camp director to let me go for free as an assistant team leader. Because the insurance stopped covering me.

Panagiotis: Yes.

Konstantina: You know, the camps... And then, when I was assistant team leader, something happened to the team leader and I became the team leader. So, I had a group of little kids. And now I had to convince them to do what I wanted them to do. Because we were up in the mountains. We couldn't do whatever we wanted.

Panagiotis: Yes, of course.

Konstantina: Then, I liked it so much and I had also developed a relationship with the leader who... I mean, he really gave me even more responsibility.

Panagiotis: He trusted you and...

Konstantina: He trusted me, yes. And then I became the leader of all the group leaders.

Panagiotis: Okay.

Konstantina: That was before I turned 18.

Panagiotis: Okay.

Konstantina: So, at that point, I actually liked it even more. And then I had a team of team leaders, each of whom had, let's say, 10 to 15 kids. And basically, I was in charge of a team of 100 or so people at that stage. Imagine, these were my teenage years. I learned a lot of lessons there about what it means to be a leader. 

No one will listen to you if you just talk and don’t act. And you won’t be inspiring. If you haven't put in a lot of effort and haven’t accomplished certain things, it’s also very hard for someone to come and follow you. And that’s why, maybe the first hires are also difficult. Because you haven’t proven yourself yet, either. 

For me, hard work matters a lot. Basically, I believe that if you work enough on something and you're really sensitive to understand what works and what doesn't work right now. I try. I bang my head against the wall with something. Okay? What can I improve to get better results? If you put in many hours every day and keep trying to make a process better continuously for many days, months, you’ll reach a point where the outcome will be really good. I believe in this. I’ve seen it happen. This is one of the big learnings. 

But it's not just hard work. It's also about how much you care. There are some people who will not let this thing move on to the next person or to the client yet. Without having triple-checked it, checked it ten times, and making sure that this is the best work they can produce. In everything you do, you really have to put in the best you can.

Panagiotis: Speaking a bit about the future, what are the next steps? What should we expect from Kaedim? 

Konstantina:  Look, my biggest goal is to build a billion-dollar company. One that truly solves a very big problem. That's the super high-level thing I can say. To make that happen, a lot of other things will need to be done. Including further building the team. That is, to grow our teams. 

At the moment, we have three offices. London, San Francisco, and Singapore. Of course, we also have a remote team everywhere around the world. And lately, we're also thinking about opening our first Greek office.

Panagiotis: Here we are.

Konstantina: Here we are. Great.

Panagiotis: We'll help out here.

Konstantina: Perfect. So yes, that's one of the plans. And okay, scale. From now on, for us, we've proven that what we're building and what we've built is valuable.

Panagiotis: Do you have any other Greeks, first of all, on the team? 

Konstantina: We do. We are actually two Greek women. The founding engineer is also Greek.

Panagiotis: Wow.

Konstantina: One of the most hardworking people I've met in my life. I'm excited, I mean, to start trying to build a team here.

Panagiotis: Yes.

Konstantina: And I believe that there is talent. I hope that startups will be more attractive. Because I see that the best students go toward research. But for startups or the examples of startups to enter universities and for this movement to happen, for people to want to work at startups and appreciate it, I think that's...

Panagiotis: For you, this is a great opportunity. I completely agree with what you're saying. That Greek universities are fascinated with research, and don't focus on entrepreneurship. We're trying to fix that. We are on it. 

I think that in your field, since there are many schools, private or creative schools in Greece, I think your choice to come to Greece is right because you'll find people that match your ethics and the values you've set for me as Kaedim's core values. But also, the fact that Greeks are very creative and we also have very good schools, I think it will have a very big return.

Konstantina: give you an update in six months.

Panagiotis: Let's go to a quick question game, right?

Konstantina: Let's go.

Panagiotis: Very quick questions and tell us what you prefer. Book or podcast? 

Konstantina: Podcast. 

Panagiotis: Are you a morning or night person? 

Konstantina: Morning.

Panagiotis: What time do you wake up? 

Konstantina: Between 6 and 7.

Panagiotis: Christ and Holy Mary.

Konstantina: My office is one street away from my house, so in five minutes I’m at the office.

Panagiotis: Now, coffee or tea? 

Konstantina: Coffee. 

Panagiotis: Well, at six o’clock in the morning, no one wakes up with tea. Which historical figure would you like to have dinner with, to have a lunch with? 

Konstantina: Elon Musk. 

Panagiotis: Do you still like him? 

Konstantina: I do. Well, look, I respect.

Panagiotis: Yes. He’s a disruptor, he’s a builder.

Konstantina: Yes. You have to admit. The second would be Jensen Huang, whom I've actually met, but we didn't sit down for a meal. 

Panagiotis: What technology can't you live without? 

Konstantina: I think ChatGPT has risen really quickly to being a technology I use daily. 

Panagiotis: What's your favorite city to travel to? 

Konstantina: Well, my favorite city I've visited so far is Barcelona. 

Panagiotis: Is there a book that has changed your life? Or at least has had a big influence on you?

Konstantina: Recently, the ones I've read that I really liked include Seven Rules for Life by Arnold Schwarzenegger, actually, of all people. And basically, it shows how he went from zero, to top of the world in bodybuilding, then top of the world in Los Angeles movie making, and then governor of California, the biggest state in the US.

Panagiotis: 7th or 8th GDP in the world. That is, it's not just a state.

Konstantina: Yes. Crazy. So, huge learnings over there from this person. And Elon Musk's book really impressed me, about one and a half years ago when I read it.

Panagiotis: Is there any advice you've heard that you keep top of mind? 

Konstantina: Yes. Actually, it's from Jensen. From a talk he gave at Stanford a few years ago. It really resonated with me. And they had invited him for a graduation ceremony, I think. He told all the kids there, I know that you are all really, you know, you have a lot of advantages to be here and you know, you're privileged.

Panagiotis: They are privileged.

Konstantina: To be here. So, what I wish upon you is a lot of pain and suffering so that you can achieve great things. 

And I really like that because I think it truly embodies one of the core values I have too, that to achieve something incredibly great you have to go through a huge amount of pain and suffering. You can't escape it. And Jensen actually is a big idol for me as well. I mean, all the effort he has put in and what he has been through.

Panagiotis: His story is fantastic. 

Konstantina: It's unbelievable. It's fantastic. And also, very inspiring for anyone listening to this podcast. So that’s something that shouldn’t scare young people.

Panagiotis: But how do you deal with fatigue and pain? I mean, both the pain and the suffering. I mean, I hear you, hard work, pressure, success doesn't come easily. Otherwise, we’d all have it and it wouldn’t be so scarce. But okay. At some point there’s a moment where you realize you need to find tools and support.

Konstantina: Yes.

PANAGIOTIS: Panagiotis: ways.

Konstantina: Well, for me it's sports and the gym. I might work 14 hours a day. I start at 7, but at 1-2 p.m. I'll take a break, go to the gym for an hour, and then I'll continue from 2, I don't know.

Panagiotis: Whatever.

Konstantina: Whatever. Like I said before, make sure the people you work with are truly people you admire, so every morning you say, wow, I work with these people and wow, I work towards this goal. Okay? 

The third thing is momentum. What do I mean. It's very difficult to keep pushing and pushing and pushing and not see any results. That's why it's very important to iterate, making small adjustments to see what moves you forward and what improves. So, for me, momentum is the cure to burnout. If I told anyone, I've been working 14 hours a day, on average, for 5 years, they'd say I'm crazy, that's impossible.

Panagiotis: Yes, you'd burn out.

Konstantina: And of course, the people you have close to you.

Panagiotis: We end every interview with a common question. Because we select our interviews based on a common criterion. To be outliers. That is, to be in the top performing class of founders. 

What do you think makes an entrepreneur an outlier? You've touched on it during the conversation, you've given it to us, you've painted the picture for us. But if you could put it in one or two sentences, what do you think makes an entrepreneur so successful? 

Konstantina: The first would be resilience. "Not give up" attitude. The other is also ambition. For an entrepreneur, it counts a lot. To have a really big ambition. Because if you have something really big, it's constantly the motivator. For me, it's hard to build a billion-dollar business. Yes, I've taken steps in that direction and achieved things, and it's good to look back and say, look how far I've come. But setting a very high goal, for the right people, it is a motivator every day—to try for that thing. And if I had to say a third thing, taking risks. I mean, it wasn't easy for me either to pack everything up and go to San Francisco.

Panagiotis: Yes.

Konstantina: So, you have to be comfortable with un-comfort.

Panagiotis: Konstantina, thank you so much.

Konstantina: Thank you.